Steven Avery
Administrator
That was a reference to your English problems, around hyphens, especially, but it also applies to commas.
Romans 9:5 - Benjamin Hall Kennedy on early ECW
- Thread starter Steven Avery
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That was a reference to your English problems, around hyphens, especially, but it also applies to commas.
Steven Avery
Administrator
Such back translation claims are always dicey.
Murray Harris discusses the word order on p. 161, and does not mention any qualitative difference if ευλογημένος is in front or back of God. He discusses what is normative, and runs around the LXX and runs to nothing. The "extraordinary inversion" on p. 162 is irrelevant since it is on the assumption that it is a doxology to God the Father.
You can try to prove that my text and interpretation can not come from the TR text.
θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας
So far, your attempts have been poor and a failure, such as claiming my English has a verb.
Maybe I will write to my fluent Greek friend, Vasileios Tsialas in Athens. He actually knows the Greek language, fluently, unlike American seminarians (for the most part.) My question would be whether there is any difficulty in the TR text being a doxology to Christ, from God, without any apposition between Christ and God. Something along that line.
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Steven Avery
Administrator
You really need some English grammar refreshing.
Please look this over.
Forever can be an adverb or a noun.
https://wordtype.org/of/forever
As detailed above, 'forever' can be an adverb or a noun.
Adverb usage: I shall love you forever.
Adverb usage: We had to wait forever to get inside.
Adverb usage: It took her forever to get dressed and ready for the party.
God blessed is adjectival to Christ.
For ever is adverbial, modifying by time the adjectival pharse.
Romans 9:5
Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all,
God blessed for ever.
Amen.
Steven Avery
Administrator
You have had problem after problem with the English of Romans 9:5.
I've documented a whole bunch of those problems, recent ones, here:
circular grammatical claims of zero merit - apposition, second predicate
circular grammatical claims of zero merit - apposition, second predicate
This has been a theme of the “Christ is God” approach to Romans 9:5. Here are two examples. 1) Christ and God are in apposition. This is true in some punctuations and interpretations. Not true in others. Essentially it is a preferred conclusion wrongfully cast as a grammatical fact and cause...
www.purebibleforum.com
Since your English grammar is unreliable, your claims on properly lining up Greek and English can barely be taken with a grain of salt.
You're not understanding Harris correctly. I have explained this all at length most recently here, and other places besides. Still, you keep insisting on words that do not have the meaning you give them. Now you are jumping pages, other than those provided to derive a meaning other than his actual conclusions and obfuscating the point altogether.
I did not say it could not function as an adverb. What I did say is that a noun in the Greek (in this case, "forever") does not come into English as an adverb: θεὸς (noun) εὐλογητὸς (adjective) εἰς (preposition) τοὺς αἰῶνας (noun) ἀμήν.
You claim above that "for ever" is adverbial? And that "God blessed" is adjectival? I beg your pardon, if there is no verb, the adverb has no function in the sentence. If "forever" is adverbial, and describes "blessed," then you have placed yourself in a conundrum where you are using "blessed" as a verb--or "God blessed" as a compound verb (which you actually do hyphenate as "God-blessed")--yet only saying it is an adjective. If there is no verb, the adverb has no function. Your insistence on taking "forever" as an adverb means you have proved my point exactly.
My grammar is fine. You, on the other hand, are literally are saying an adverb is describing an adjective in this sentence.
By all means, I appreciate that. It's what you should have done in the beginning, when you started to accuse me of things in places you are clearly out of your depth. I even advised you not to take my word for it, and ask around.
Steven Avery
Administrator
You need that English refresher.
An adverb can modify an adjective.
Adverbs
http://www.butte.edu/departments/cas/tipsheets/grammar/adverbs.html
An adverb is a word used to modify a verb, adjective, or another adverb. An adverb usually modifies by telling how, when, where, why, under what conditions, or to what degree. An adverb is often formed by adding -ly to an adjective.
For ever tells you when Christ is God blessed.
=============
You might also look up adverbial nouns.
An adverbial noun is a word which serves the function of either a noun or an adverb depending on the sentence in which it is used. ... "An hour" is an adverbial noun in the sentence, "The kids played outside for an hour." For example, in the sentence "I drove north," the word "north" is an adverbial noun.
Adventures with Adverbials: Part Two
Adventures with Adverbials: Part Two
Adverbials can add more information to many common sentence patterns in English. By learning and mastering adverbials, English learners can improve their writing and speaking skills.
===============
Remember, ... God blessed for ever ... is not a full sentence.
(Christ is) .... God blessed for ever. - right
God (is) blessed for ever - wrong
================
It is funny, you straightjacket yourself in English grammar much like you do with your GSR rules.
You are out of your depth on your English claims.
And I have zero reason to suspect you do better with your Greek claims.
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You keep dancing around the fact that the Greek word translated "Forever" is a noun.
Technically true. However, in such a case the adverb is actually considered an intensifier, which would not be the function here.
You're constantly evading the simple point that you can't yield a compound noun + adjective in English from that Greek construction.
Steven Avery
Administrator
Lange says there is a reference for Theodore of Mopsuestia
The Epistle of Paul to the Romans (1869)
Johann Peter Lange, Fr. Rud Fay
https://books.google.com/books?id=shFBAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA308
Here is one Tholuck in English, but without Theodore.
https://books.google.com/books?id=o6ACAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA191
p. 191-199
Steven Avery
Administrator
No dancing, nouns can have adverbial usage.
The English is obviously adverbial. You intensifier sentence is just a red herring.
You are weak on the English, so I doubt you have any good understanding of the flexibilities of translating a Greek noun.
My English is fine, and so is my Greek. Let's recap: I had two different conversations with an English teacher and grammarian, in both of which your interpretation was criticized, and in both of which "no" was offered as to whether it can mean "blessed by God." In addition, you are literally saying that everyone else here is wrong by omitting a third (you say "correct") option--which the Greek does not allow--and by ignoring all the Greek authors who understand it the same way as I do. You can assert something is wrong, or weak, or say "nope," "flawed," "mistaken," all you want but that does not prove your point.I've also explained the usage in literally the same way as Harris, even though you keep thinking he agrees with you on the meaning of the AV reading.
You're really shooting yourself in the foot with this one. Two English words together can act as a compound, but that's not how it works in Greek. An adjective placed before or after a Greek noun of the same case and number is either predicative or attributive. They do not form a compound. Whether attributive or predicative depends on the placement of the article. When a linking verb is not supplied in the Greek predicate construction, we add it into the translation so that it matches the English convention.
Steven Avery
Administrator
All of this is blah-blah until you give an answer here:
https://www.purebibleforum.com/inde...ist-and-god-are-in-apposition.2311/#post-9028
Steven Avery
Administrator
Also on the Hermeneutics Stack Exchange
Does Romans 9:5 refers to Jesus as God?
According to an interlinear translation, Romans 9:5 reads as follows: Christ according to the flesh being over all Theos blessed Romans 9:5 Interlinear Some less literal translations explain this...
hermeneutics.stackexchange.com
is Martin Hemsley.
Which is the natural way to read the English text.
Brian can see that because he has God doing a very awkward double-duty.
Steven Avery
Administrator
Another interesting point is the various commentators who, in discussing the verse, say words like this.
"Christ is God blessed forever."
Which clearly should mean that God is blessing Christ forever.
Unless a comma is put after God.
Some of these people have an apposition view, others do not.
I point this out because it offers a simplified form of the basic comma-apposition question.
"Christ is God blessed forever."
Which clearly should mean that God is blessing Christ forever.
Unless a comma is put after God.
Some of these people have an apposition view, others do not.
I point this out because it offers a simplified form of the basic comma-apposition question.
This would be reading into the commentary. If we translated the Greek into English today, we'd do it with modern language conventions. But the AV is an early modern English translation enacted four centuries ago. Though similar, there are distinct differences between the two.
Steven Avery
Administrator
No, it is simply reading the commentary using our regular English abilities.
Which is why you keep reading into the commentaries something that's not there, and I have to keep correcting you? You're literally reading a search hit on a page, posting it, and I doubt in most cases you've actually read the whole commentary. Failing to do your homework properly is wasting my time.
You've taken up this issue in a host of threads now, and I can't keep up with them all. I simply don't have the time. So I'm tabling the discussion here. I hope you can respect that.
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