> DISPUTATIO THEOLOGICA, DE TRIBUS TESTIBUS COELESTIBUS (1674)
> Ex 1 Jon. v. 7. Respondente J Benedicto Picteto Genevensi
http://books.google.com/books?id=KhRMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA289
http://books.google.com/books?id=13oRAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA289
> ....Watch the emphasis on Cyprian, Contra Arium about Nicea (Athanasius-Arius), the Carthage documents, Jerome's explanation in the Vulgate Prologue, Fulgentius responding to the Arians, and doctrinal and internal and interpretative considerations (most of the article)
psaulm119
OK from what I can tell, the list of sources on page 290 looks much like the typical modern statements that one reads--not in many Greek and Latin mss, not in versions, not used in debates with anti-trinitarians where it would be expected if known. Then he goes to a comment in one of Jerome's prefaces, and then skips to Erasmus and later editions of the TR. Very interesting
Steven
Right. Francis Turretin was totally informed. He even discusses the Vulgate Prologue which says how translators were unfaithful in dropping the heavenly witnesses. And he knew the ins and outs of the history of the Complutensian, Erasmus, Cajetan (one of the early critics who considered the verse doubtful) Codex Brittanica, etc.
Your quote was from Institutio Theologicae Elencticae has been translated in two ways, the second one has the benefit of at least pointing out the Latin word exemplaria (the Latin is further down in this post.)
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yet all the Greek copies have it, as Sixtus Senensis acknowledges: "they have been the words of never-doubted truth, and contained in all the Greek copies from the very times of the apostles" (Bibliotheca sancta [1575], 2:298) **
** English translation from Institutes of Elenctic Theology by Francis Turretin, trans. George Musgrave Giger, ed. James T. Dennison, vol 1 (Phillipsburg, New Jersey: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing, 1992), 6. ibid, p. 11
All the Greek witnesses (exemplaria) have it, as Sixtus Senensis recognizes: "The words always were of unquestioned truth, and are read in all Greek manuscripts from the time of the apostles themselves."
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Now based on these English translation (snippets) .. Francis Turretin has been a whipping boy of a number of modern authors.
Attacking Turretin:
[textualcriticism] Re: 1 Timothy 3:16 in Codex Alexandrinus - March 30, 2006
Michael Marlowe
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/textualcriticism/message/1863 -
Turretin was a famous and well-respected theologian, and his Institutio was used as a textbook of theology in some Reformed seminaries up to the middle of the nineteenth century. But it's evident that this worthy author had no interest in investigating the possibility that a reading unconvenient to settled dogma could be the more authentic reading. False but "theologically correct" statements such as Turretin makes here set the tone for the time, and made it impossible for scholars to deal honestly with the evidence without fear of being tarred as heretics. Here is Turretin saying "all the Greek copies" have the Johannine Comma, when in fact *none* of the copies he could have examined in Switzerland contained the clause! And he quotes an Italian author who also maintained that the Comma is "in all the Greek copies." You see how utterly wrong and misleading some witnesses can be, and what a bad position we are in if we rely upon citations or testimony about readings from interested parties.
Textual Criticism in the Writings of Francis Turretin
A Case Study in the History of Criticism and Dogma
by Michael Marlowe, May 2003
http://www.bible-researcher.com/turretin-text.html
... We must suppose that he had little interest in discovering the true facts of the case when the common opinion of uninformed men served his purpose. It is very instructive to note this weakness in the work of such a learned man as Turretin.
[textualcriticism] Re: 1 Timothy 3:16 in Codex Alexandrinus - March 30, 2006
Daniel Buck
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/textualcriticism/message/1864
What Turretin was exibiting was an appalling ignorance of the textual corpus (which could have been remedied by a careful perusal
of the CA in Beza's TR)
Reformed Orthodoxy (2006)
Henk van den Belt
https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstream/handle/1887/4582/04.pdf;sequence=16
Turretin, Institutio II.xi.10. Cf. Turret in. Institutes 1. 115. Turretin depended on secondary sources for this judgment. For the Johannine Comma he refers to Sixtus Senensis (1520-1569) who wrote that the Comma was present in all the Greek copies from the times of the apostles. Cf. Sisto da Siena. Bibliotheca sancta, vol. 2, Frankfurt 1575. 298.On the Johannine Comma in Reformed orthodoxy cf. Muller, PRRD 2-2, 421-424.
James White
http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/1996/06...-unwillingness-to-deal-with-the-plain-issues/
Bob Hayton
http://jackhammer.wordpress.com/200...87-21-questions-on-the-doctrine-of-scripture/
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Now what are exemplaria ? It does not sound to me like simply "manuscripts" or "copies" in this context, definitely not all the copies for centuries. Note this usage .. looks just like our word exemplar.
Jacques Lefévre d'Etaples
Epistle 141
Unde fit, ut tempore Hieronymi codices Gracci hanc particulam in epistola loannis haberent: Tres sunt qui testimonium dant in caclo, Pater, Verbum, et Spiritus sanctus, et hi tres unum sunt, qua nunc carent nostra exemplaria Gracca.
Similarly Jerome refers to the Hesychius Greek OT as the exemplaria Alexandrina. While Sepulveda makes distinctions between codices and lectio and exemplaria, with the exemplaria Romans == libri archetype. So what you have is mediocre, questionable translation jumped on for the purpose of accusation. By writers who apparently do not know the very basics of the heavenly witnesses debate and what was actually written by Francis Turrretin.
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Francis Turretin was simply explaining that Jerome and the evidence points to the Greek exemplars down to the days of the apostles as having the heavenly witnesses. Exemplars from the times, at the times... not all copies (codices) since the times.
And as well the verse was in the Greek exemplars of his day, in the Greek editions approved (Complutensian Stephani, Hutteri, etc).
Here is the original Latin of the quote that is accused through translation
Francisci Turrettini opera, Volume 1
X. Falso Editio Hebraea Veteris et GraecaNovi Testamenti dicitur mutila: Nec quae ab Adversariis afferuntur testimonia hoc evincere possunt. Non historia adulterae, Job. 8, licet enim desit in Syriaca Versione, reperitur in omnibus Graecis Codicibus. Non dictum, 1 Joh. v. 7, quamvis enim quidam in dubium olim vocarint, et vocent hodie haeritici, habent tamen omnia Exemplaria Graeca, ut Sixtus Senensis agnoscit:
verba indubitatae semper veritatis fuerunt, et in omnibus Graecis exemplaribus ab ipsis Apostolorum temporibus lecta.
Non Marci 16 caput, quod potuit in variis exemplaribus desiderari tempore Hieronymi, ut ipse fatetur; sed nunc La omnibus habetur, etiam in Syriaca Versione, et est plane necessarium ad pertexendam historiam resurrectionis Christi.
Francisci Turrettini opera, Volume 1 (1847)
Notice the emphasis on what Jerome said about manuscripts, with the Mark ending. Jerome specifically tells us of the Greek manuscripts of his day having the heavenly witnesses, but its being dropped by unfaithful translators (and scribes, by context.)
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Notice that here Jerome is again talking of the ancient exemplars, very specifically, in the discussion of the Vulgate Prologue, where it is most apt.
De tribus testibus coelestibus (1848)
1691 edition - original is 1674
V. Primo, fides probatissimorum et antiquissimorum Exemplarium, quae hic pro nobis aperte militant. Hieronymus, qui ex testmonio Augustini fuit Vir doctissiraus, et trium linguarum peritissimus, qui et omnia fere ante ilium Scripta Ecclesiastica legit, in prologo in Epist. Cano. ad Eutochium, refert, Codices omnes Graecos suo tempore versum hunc habuisse, et hunc de Unitate Trinitatis locum ab infidelibus Latinis Interpretibus omission queritur.
Here you can see the emphasis on Jerome, that in his time the Greek, the Latin and the interpreters had the heavenly witnesses, as expressed in the Vulgate Prologue.
Overall, I wondered about this for awhile, until I was able to find the real, full Turretin section about the heavenly witnesses.
Disputatio Theologica
De Tribus Testibus Coelestibus - p. 289-303
https://books.google.com/books?id=KhRMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA289
I - Athanasius
II - unsure
III - internal doctrinal (looks worthwhile)
IV - adversaris
V - Jerome Prologue, Cyprian, Athanasius and much more
VI - Syriac, Arabic, Ethiopic discussed
VII - internal doctrinal
(continues)
This section is very strong.
When it comes to Reformation-era giants, may I suggest "slow to accuse" would be a savvy style of writing.
All this based on Marlowe's not knowing the strength of Turretin's writing! Which I had come across in my heavenly witnesses study.