ensample and example

Steven Avery

Administrator
Glistering Truths
https://www.bibleprotector.com/glistering_truths.pdf

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Ensample or Example
Paul Scott with Matthew Verschuur
https://www.purecambridgetext.com/post/2018/11/14/ensample-or-example

Ensample or Example

Here is another case where the contemporary theologians, bloggers, dictionaries, et al., face a discrepancy in the KJV text and subsequently fail to exercise faith. However, we believe every word, including even the punctuation marks; therefore, we give the benefit of the doubt to the word of God, and we ‘catch up’ to its wonder.

The word example is commonly used and commonly understood to be a pattern, something or some process that is to be noted (and copied if favorable; shunned if unfavorable). So the question someone posed was, what’s the difference between the well known word, example, and the seldom used word, ensample? (Ensample or ensamples appears six times in the KJV).

The point is, ensample always and only refers to man’s characteristic and behavior. Ensample never applies to an inanimate product. Example, on the other hand, may apply to both personal or (and as typically used), general products and processes (not personal).

Watch the context and key words in 1 Peter 5: 1-3 where ensample is used:

“Among you…partaker…among you…being ensamples…”

In other words, live among them, let them see your personal characteristics, your personal habits and such.

Being ensamples is a charge to their person: be a living pattern that others can emulate. (You do not emulate inanimate objects, you copy them) .
1 Corinthians 10: 6 : “Now these things were our examples…” Note these things, these experiences (vs. 1-4). Things are the patterns for us to learn from, the cause and effect of things past. Notice in vs 1-6 there is no personal characteristic revealed. We only know ‘all’ did this and that, and then God overthrew them.

1 Corinthians 10:11: “Now all these happened unto them for ensamples” After a list a personal characteristics (lusted, idolaters, fornication, tempters, murmurers), the word ensamples is used, with an exact admonition to follow “flee from idolatry” (10:14). It’s a very personal and detailed pattern; and in this case, one to avoid!

One more: 1 Thessalonians 1:7: “…So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia….”

The context is obvious: these believers were a great pattern in their personal walk with Christ. Paul said he needed to write nothing—they had provided so great an ensample for others to emulate. He even said “And ye became followers of us” (vs 6) — and uses the word ‘manner’ twice in context, referring to their personal conduct.

So, in conclusion, when the word ensample(s) is used, look for a pattern of personal behavior and conduct, be it good or bad. A subtle difference in spelling cues the reader about the context.
 
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Steven Avery

Administrator
EXCELLENT! - agrees with BibleProtector

Scripture and the Authorized Version of Scripture: Being the Substance of Two Ordination Sermons, with an Appendix, Containing Notes, and a Glossary of Words which Have Become Obsolete in the Sense which They Bear in the Translation of the New Testament (1853)
Samuel Hinds
https://books.google.com/books?id=psK42yS9tykC&pg=PA141

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Steven Avery

Administrator
The King James Bible in America: An Orthographic, Historical, and Textual Investigation (2019)
Bryan Ross

In summation, neither the OED nor the earlier English dictionaries identified above support the nuanced definition of “ensample” offered by Bible Protector in Glistering Truths. The words “ensample” and “example” do not differ substantively. Rather they are synonymous in meaning contrary to the claims of some King James Bible Believers.

Too much OED and the linguistic fallacy that if it is the same Greek or Hebrew word, you should expect the same English.
 
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Steven Avery

Administrator
Steven Avery
https://www.facebook.com/groups/467...53603707164&reply_comment_id=1438176657028192

Robert Lee Vaughn - sure, I usually do not go into these once I studied and learned that stablish and establish was a good exemplar for knowing the fact that the differences are substantive.

Thus, I consider Bryan Ross a bit weak in these studies, relying on OED too much, and struggling to not understand the distinction.
Also you often run into the linguistic fallacy that if it is the same Greek or Hebrew word, that negates the English difference. Often our beautiful English language allows more nuance, that you would only get in the source language by context. (This is hard for the critics to accept
🙂
)
Bryan Ross
"In summation, neither the OED nor the earlier English dictionaries identified above support the nuanced definition of “ensample” offered by Bible Protector in Glistering Truths. The words “ensample” and “example” do not differ substantively. Rather they are synonymous in meaning contrary to the claims of some King James Bible Believers."
While Mark Ward is not worth the time-waste. Timothy Berg will similarly, albeit more cautiously, hang too much on AV criticisms.
Notice that Samuel Hinds in 1853 gives basically the same distinction as Matthew Verschuur and Paul Scott.
There seems to be some other elements to the distinction, I may get into that tomorrow.

ensample and example
https://www.purebibleforum.com/index.php?threads/ensample-and-example.3451/
 

Steven Avery

Administrator
Samuel Hinds (1793-1870)
http://anglicanhistory.org/england/shinds/

see Cyclopaedia

An inquiry into the proofs, nature and extent of inspiration (1831)
https://archive.org/details/inquiryintoproof00hind/page/n6

Scripture and the Authorized Versions of Scripture: Being the Substance of Two Ordination Sermons, With an Appendix, Containing Notes, and a Glossary of Words Which Have Become Obsolete. 1845.
https://books.google.com/books?id=psK42yS9tykC&pg=PA141

THE PAMPHLET COLLECTION OF SIR ROBERT STOUT: VOLUME 3
THE GREAT PROBLEM SOLVED; BEING REPLIES TO THE QUESTION 'WHAT HAVE WE GOT TO RELY ON, IF WE CANNOT RELY ON THE BIBLE?', BY … S. HINDS AND F.W. NEWMAN. WITH AN INTRODUCTION BY J.G.S. GRANT

The rise and early progress of Christianity / by Samuel Hinds.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433068185523&seq=27

 
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Steven Avery

Administrator
Kyle Stephens and Kent Settlemyer

In the King James Bible the words “ensample” & “example” do not have the same meaning. The corrupt modern versions have replaced the word “ensample” with “example” and state that they have the same meaning. But if God had anything to do with the King James Bible and His guidance of the 47 translators then do you not think He put the word “ensample” there for a reason? If the two words have the exact same meaning then God possibly allowed the 47 translators to make a mistake.

I knew there must be a reason for every comma, period, and word in the King James Bible but I just was not smart enough to figure it out myself. In Kyle Stephens book “The Certainty of the Words” I was given the explanation from Scripture and was amazed. Even the staunchest AV 1611 KJB defenders state that the two words are synonyms and have the same meaning.

Stephens states, “’Examples’ in the scriptures are loosely fitted lessons, warnings and applications. They cannot be copied or emulated precisely due to certain boundaries or constraints of circumstance. ‘Ensamples’ are to be followed as precisely and as exactingly as possible. They are literally the samples of how we should live, respond or act.” The apostle Paul would be an “Ensample”.

He gives a broader explanation stating that, “In the King James Bible, an ‘example’ serves as a warning or a pattern for those who are not in the exact same predicament or scenario. An ‘example’ is a pattern of behavior that is not necessarily intended to be exactly mimicked or emulated or precisely repeated, but a lesson to be drawn from and even extended to apply to other unrelated exercises. An ‘example’ is a pattern behavior or occurrence that is to be learned from, and lessons drawn from, but not necessarily identically copied or reproduced. Lessons are to be drawn and applied to one’s individual situations, though the situation does not match the ‘example’ exactly…An ‘ensample’, defined by biblical precept, is a person that one can pattern oneself after in every way, if possible, because he is precisely what one is supposed to be.”

The problem is going to the Greek and letting it be our final authority. Stephens explains, “The Greek does not make the distinction of meanings between the two words that the King James Bible makes plain.” Obviously many will have major issues with that statement but Stephens’ book makes it crystal clear from the scriptures and the exact words God directed the 47 Translators to use.

Stephens gives an excellent explanation, “There is a profound and genuinely substantial difference between ‘example(s)’ and ‘ensample(s)’ in the AV 1611 King James Bible. Though the words are similar, they are not identical. Though they are plainly akin one to the other, they are not the same. There are distinct and discernible characteristics between them that are manifest in the King James Bible. Nobody is going to Hell because they confuse, or do not discern the differences between the two words, but let the saint take warning: the Lord is more exacting and precise in His verbiage and wording than is one’s favorite scholar! A mortal scholar, who may be saved and sincere, will chase grammatical butterflies into left field somewhere along the way. He will become so preoccupied by tenses and obscure declensions that he forgets that he is dealing with the living words of the Living God. It is the Lord that preserves and delivers his word. Sometimes God uses a route or mode of delivery that men do not appreciate or acknowledge.”

Before you totally discount this evidence, “study” the usage of the two words for yourself in the King James Bible and how each word is used or easier yet, get his book. I guarantee it is worth it. Kent S. Settlemyer

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In my opinion the problem with the examples you are giving Will is that the King James Bible is the final purification of God's perfect and infallible words and comparing the other Bibles in that same line is just showing where God was still purifying His words.

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Actually Stephens addresses each scripture you have questioned Will. I was just not able to adequately put all of that in my original post. He takes 40 pages to show each time the two words are used in the scriptures. If you get his book you can read his explanations and I believe all will be clear.

‘Ensample’ and ‘example’ are both used in 2 Peter 2:6 as you pointed out and Sodom and Gomorrha are also mentioned again in Jude 1:7 with the word ‘example’. Stephens states, “Peter says, ‘And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly. Jude 7 uses the other term: ‘Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.’ …It is consistent to say that the two sodomite cities are both examples and ensamples, for they are examples in the respect that it is unlikely that all sodomite cities will be destroyed in the exact same way (brimstone). If a sodomite city today is destroyed by earthquake, Sodom and Gomorrha would still serve as examples, for they will suffer the vengeance of God, though by earth, not fire; and their inhabitants, despite the method of mortal destruction, will suffer ‘eternal fire’. In that very way, the two cities are ‘ensamples unto those that after should live ungodly’, as well. The ‘ungodly’ of 2 Pet. 2:6 will be condemned… with an overthrow just as Sodom and Gomorrha, and they will also go off into ‘eternal fire’.”

There is more of an explanation and he also adequately addresses each of the other verses you mentioned. I strongly suggest you read his book. These two words are not the only ones that he shows how the modern versions have changed the preserved words in the KJB. i.e. ‘Charity’ & ‘Love’

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Daniel C. Hurdle
Great article brother Kent. I have heard another similar discourse, and to put in a very simple way... (ex)ample has to do with that which is "without", and (en)sample has to do with that which is "within", "ex" and "en", like unto "exit, and enter".
 
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Steven Avery

Administrator
Christopher Yetzer
ensample and pattern
I commented with this in the other group. It makes a difference between ensample and pattern. https://www.google.it/books/edition/Michigan_School_Moderator/fkfnAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=ensample example KJV&pg=PA751&printsec=frontcover&fbclid=IwAR3hCcEH7rhhPvOcA6bq73ktOrWGbZMVmEVHinvlF1rhIcuLbvdODmVBzR0

Robert Lee Vaughn I think Archive has all the OED's online. Just go to the bottom of the page and look for the other volumes. https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.99992/page/n915/mode/2up
 
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Steven Avery

Administrator
Rick Norris
John Uit de Flesch, David Norton, editor of the 2005 and 2011 Cambridge editions of the KJV, did not find any difference in meaning between the two so he updated the spelling of ensample. I have seen one KJV edition as early as 1784 that updated ensample to example as a spelling update.

Philippians 3:17
example [2005, 2011 Cambridge] (1784 Piguenit) (1911 TCE) (1968 Royal) (1970 TN) (1975 Open) (CSB) (RRB) (LASB) (KJRLB) (1984, 1994, 2010 ZOND) (1987, 1988 IBS) (1991 AMG) (JVIPB) (2002, 2010 KJVER) (2006 PENG) (ASB) (2012 Biblica) (2013 HMB) (1833 WEB) (1842 Bernard) (1851 Cone) (1824 Boothroyd) (2023 Sayers)

ensample (1769 Oxford, SRB) [1769 Cambridge, DKJB]
 

Steven Avery

Administrator
Matthew Verschuur
The example/ensample thing was in the original edition of my book from 2009, it has a different meaning, despite whatever Rick Norris, David Norton, Mark Ward or that Pastor Burris guy says.

I def discussed this issue with Steven Avery around late 2007.

Yes, I have heard of it before I mentioned it. Also see this: http://www.bibleprotector.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=45

There is an actual difference. Example means an external example, whereas an ensample is one you take to heart. When looking at the usage of the word in each place, the distinctness is discernible. Of course, with your attitude, and desire to make the KJB just like any other book, you will not see it nor recognise it.
 
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Steven Avery

Administrator
Robert Lee Vaughn
Links I have collected while researching this topic (that I don’t think have been mentioned, though perhaps some have):

Stories and Catechisings in Illustration of the Collects, 1851, Jackson

Middle English Compendium:

1882 Etymological Dictionary

Signs of the Times, Primitive Baptist periodical, 1910

A Dictionary of the Bible, James Hastings

Universal Etymological Dictionary, 1726

“In Awe of Thy Word” by Gail Riplinger (It sort of hints at this distinction, but does not spell it out as clearly)

Changes In Your King James Bible? by E. Morales

Examples & Ensamples by David Guyon

What are Ensamples & Examples in the KJB - Built in Dictionary by Wesley Ray

Is 17th-Century British English Holy? David Cloud

The words "example" versus "ensemble". Is there really a difference? by Will Kinney

Ensample vs Example: Differences And Uses For Each One

This last one is a particularly “odd.” – it apparently comes from the business world rather than a religious context, and discusses a word I wouldn’t think is used much in the business world.
 

Steven Avery

Administrator
Peter Julie Heisey

Part of the problem in the ensample/example discussion is the actual number of occurrences, as well as the locations, of each in the text of the KJB. The jury might still be out on that one, despite the various proponents of either PCE/SCE or Cambridge Concord/Cambridge Cameo editions.
I personally see a slight distinction, but it's hard to be absolutist about it given the "presentation problem" ("orthography" in a sense) with regard to the various editions.

Also, the fact that "kai" is repeated is a good indicator that the construction in English is indeed " BOTH now and ..." ["kai ... kai"]. This is noted on p. 336 of Dana & Mantey's Greek grammar book (A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament). The cross reference for the construction would be II Pet. 3:18 ("both now and ...") This would tend to support the contention that it was a printing error (as Will Kinney noted).
 

Steven Avery

Administrator
Duane Brinson
*[[1Co 10:11/KJVLite]]* Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
KJB Marginal Note---ensamples; or types

Tami Hoshiyama
Thank you for this post, Kent. I am downloading Stephens's book to my Kindle, now.
I trust the KJ/A translators word choices -- not blindly, mind you. Isn't this "ensample vs example" issue addressed in the Translators to the Reader message?

"Same word, multiple definitions" Didn't the Translators state if the definitions were truly synonymous, they would not dogmatically (uniformly) choose one over all others (I believe so that we readers would not become lazy ...)? That may sound on its face that the Translators arbitrarily chose "example" here and "ensample" there. But, OTOH, it sure seems to me that the marginal note on "ensample" in 1 Corinthians 10:11 indicates a difference (to the Translators) between "example" and "ensample".

"... it hath pleased God in his Divine Providence here and there to scatter words and sentences of that difficulty and doubtfulness, not in doctrinal points that concern salvation, (for in such it hath been vouched that the Scriptures are plain) ..."
 

ebion

Member
“In Awe of Thy Word” by Gail Riplinger (It sort of hints at this distinction, but does not spell it out as clearly)

As for what Riplinger has to say:


The little book stays little by sometimes defining words within​
the word itself. How clever! The brevity of the KJV translators​
extends even to the letters. The KJV uses the shorter word​
`example' (7 letters), but retains the longer word ensample​
(8 letters) because it contains the built-in definition (sample). The​
so-called archaic word may be the only word that contains the​
definition built inside the word. For that reason it must be retained.​

I can't make anything out of her tortured (il)logic: maybe it has a talmudic meaning that I, as a Christian, can't fathom?
 

Steven Avery

Administrator
As for what Riplinger has to say:


The little book stays little by sometimes defining words within​
the word itself. How clever! The brevity of the KJV translators​
extends even to the letters. The KJV uses the shorter word​
`example' (7 letters), but retains the longer word ensample​
(8 letters) because it contains the built-in definition (sample). The​
so-called archaic word may be the only word that contains the​
definition built inside the word. For that reason it must be retained.​

I can't make anything out of her tortured (il)logic: maybe it has a talmudic meaning that I, as a Christian, can't fathom?

The problem is that her definition make it sound like statistical sampling. It would be a good explanation if it were true.
 
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