Steven Avery
Administrator
SBL 2023
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Vaticanus distigmai (umlauts) and ink fading - SBL 2023 -
- Thread starter Steven Avery
- Start date
Steven Avery
Administrator
Distigmai Revisited: When Material Analysis Catches Up with Common Sense
by Tommy Wasserman
http://evangelicaltextualcriticism.blogspot.com/2023/11/distigmai-revisited-when-material.html
Without going into too many details, the result of the scan gives a fingerprint of the ink in the ratio of copper/iron and zinc/iron. The very surprising result was that the unreinked text had the same fingerprint as the reinked text – the inks were based on a similar (but not identical) recipe. This led Rabin to conclude that the reinking was made already in antiquity, because the original ink had soon begun to degrade (apparently a bad mix). I asked in the Q/A how soon this degrading could have happened and Rabin answered that it could be as soon as after 10 years (!). Rabin had not yet said anything about the distigmai, which added to the drama – could both the "apricot" and the "chocolate"-colored distigmai be dated to the fourth century? Jan Krans, who now had to leave for the airport to catch his flight, and others in the room were getting nervous – and this drama paved the way for Nehemiah Gordon's presentation.
by Tommy Wasserman
http://evangelicaltextualcriticism.blogspot.com/2023/11/distigmai-revisited-when-material.html
Without going into too many details, the result of the scan gives a fingerprint of the ink in the ratio of copper/iron and zinc/iron. The very surprising result was that the unreinked text had the same fingerprint as the reinked text – the inks were based on a similar (but not identical) recipe. This led Rabin to conclude that the reinking was made already in antiquity, because the original ink had soon begun to degrade (apparently a bad mix). I asked in the Q/A how soon this degrading could have happened and Rabin answered that it could be as soon as after 10 years (!). Rabin had not yet said anything about the distigmai, which added to the drama – could both the "apricot" and the "chocolate"-colored distigmai be dated to the fourth century? Jan Krans, who now had to leave for the airport to catch his flight, and others in the room were getting nervous – and this drama paved the way for Nehemiah Gordon's presentation.
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Steven Avery
Administrator
Tommy Wasserman blunder
"As of 21 November 2023, there is no longer any cloud of uncertainty regarding the date of the distigmai."
Facebook - Textus Receptus Academy corrections
https://www.facebook.com/groups/467217787457422/posts/1476286066550584/
The new research, including the over-eager Tommy Wasserman victory lap, is already under a cloud after the two posts put into the ETC forum today.
Facebook - Textus Receptus Academy
https://www.facebook.com/groups/467...66464409211&reply_comment_id=1476956146483576
"As of 21 November 2023, there is no longer any cloud of uncertainty regarding the date of the distigmai."
Facebook - Textus Receptus Academy corrections
https://www.facebook.com/groups/467217787457422/posts/1476286066550584/
The new research, including the over-eager Tommy Wasserman victory lap, is already under a cloud after the two posts put into the ETC forum today.
Facebook - Textus Receptus Academy
https://www.facebook.com/groups/467...66464409211&reply_comment_id=1476956146483576
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Steven Avery
Administrator
Philip B. Payne
3 posts
http://evangelicaltextualcriticism....howComment=1702632329507#c5521222414698266198
3 posts
http://evangelicaltextualcriticism....howComment=1702632329507#c5521222414698266198
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Steven Avery
Administrator
Lemuel
https://www.facebook.com/groups/467...64101076114&reply_comment_id=1477048563141001
Lemuel Abarte
Steven Avery It only takes 10 seconds! Iron and copper oxidize fast. By the time you finish a gospel, you have to reink.
Sad to say, textual critics are not calligraphers.
I did engineering drawings. My dad had drafters for more than 20 years. We know the problem.
Steven
Lemuel Abarte - I think you are agreeing with Dr. Ira Rabin that ink can fade quickly ?
Lemuel
Steven Avery Yes. Oxidation is a killer. I tried it likewise manually. The tint fades after I finished a plate. Sometimes you have to redo.
===========
Lemuel
I think, off the cuff, the 4th century has faded or there was none at all. What trace amounts are acceptable in a scientific enquiry? I firmly believe that unless the physical evidences are evaluated, textual criticism is a pseudo-intellectual pursuit of the medieval variety. Hasn't it been shown that paleographic techniques are medieval?
I think that the age of the animal skin, species, and location are accessible knowledge in our time.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/467...64101076114&reply_comment_id=1477048563141001
Lemuel Abarte
Steven Avery It only takes 10 seconds! Iron and copper oxidize fast. By the time you finish a gospel, you have to reink.
Sad to say, textual critics are not calligraphers.
I did engineering drawings. My dad had drafters for more than 20 years. We know the problem.
Steven
Lemuel Abarte - I think you are agreeing with Dr. Ira Rabin that ink can fade quickly ?
Lemuel
Steven Avery Yes. Oxidation is a killer. I tried it likewise manually. The tint fades after I finished a plate. Sometimes you have to redo.
===========
Lemuel
I think, off the cuff, the 4th century has faded or there was none at all. What trace amounts are acceptable in a scientific enquiry? I firmly believe that unless the physical evidences are evaluated, textual criticism is a pseudo-intellectual pursuit of the medieval variety. Hasn't it been shown that paleographic techniques are medieval?
I think that the age of the animal skin, species, and location are accessible knowledge in our time.
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Steven Avery
Administrator
Distigmai Revisited: When Material Analysis Catches Up with Common Sense
An academic forum to discuss the Bible's manuscripts and textual history from the perspective of historic evangelical theology.
evangelicaltextualcriticism.blogspot.com
Thank you, Philip.
Your thoroughness and meticulousness above is appreciated.
Would you be able to give your opinion of the three dots connected to 1 John 5:7-8?
Are they definitely “late”?
I.e After the original text.
Might they be related to textual elements in the region? E.g. Latin manuscripts often had the heavenly witnesses, and could provide textual fodder for a variant.
Also the issue of “and these three are one” in the earthly witnesses was also a hot-button issue by the time of the Lateran Council c. AD 1200, and that had dual-language publication.
Any assistance, and speculations, appreciated!
Steven Avery
Dutchess County, NY USA
Steven Avery
Administrator
Philip B. Payne12/23/2023 10:10 pm
Thank you, Steven, for your excellent question. In Le manuscript B de la Bible, 219–222 I identify six peculiarities of these three dots that raise doubts that they are original. See https://www.pbpayne.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/HTB07_199_226.pdf. It discusses what textual variants it might note and what future ink testing might show.
Thanks, Philip. I actually used the Wayback Machine to find the url, and the discussion is excellent.
Note: above I had forgotten about the important "on earth" variant, which you discuss, as well as the well-known heavenly witnesses variant.
My extra variant which is important but lesser known "and these three are one" (involving a complicated quasi-Arian controversy with Joachim of Fiore contra Peter Lombard followed by the Lateran Council and Thomas Aquinas) could apply from c. AD 1150 on, the omission was even in the Complutensian Polyglot. So by date it remains a possibility. However it would have to mean "remove text is the variant" rather than "insert text is the variant". Does that ever occur?
Plus, as you point out, there are problematic elements.
Thanks!
Thank you, Steven, for your excellent question. In Le manuscript B de la Bible, 219–222 I identify six peculiarities of these three dots that raise doubts that they are original. See https://www.pbpayne.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/HTB07_199_226.pdf. It discusses what textual variants it might note and what future ink testing might show.
Thanks, Philip. I actually used the Wayback Machine to find the url, and the discussion is excellent.
Note: above I had forgotten about the important "on earth" variant, which you discuss, as well as the well-known heavenly witnesses variant.
My extra variant which is important but lesser known "and these three are one" (involving a complicated quasi-Arian controversy with Joachim of Fiore contra Peter Lombard followed by the Lateran Council and Thomas Aquinas) could apply from c. AD 1150 on, the omission was even in the Complutensian Polyglot. So by date it remains a possibility. However it would have to mean "remove text is the variant" rather than "insert text is the variant". Does that ever occur?
Plus, as you point out, there are problematic elements.
Thanks!
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Steven Avery
Administrator
Etc on facebook
Evangelical Textual Criticism - thanks for responding.
Yes, moderators can do whatever they please.
However, this post was timely, continued a good discussion, was about a current topic, and was meant to help clarify the topic of 1 John 5:7 and the distigmai.
Many are not aware of the variant in 1 John 5:8 “and these three are one” being omitted in the earthly witnesses, a controversy active at the time of Sepulveda, so a possible explanation of the three dots that could be easily missed. Pretty good point.
So, I’ll send Philip Payne a personal note, requesting to continue here our conversation on the topic.
And yes, some censorship is actively announced. Any post that even hints at the possibility that Codex Sinaiticus is a recent production, focusing on textual, paleographical and historical issues, is one example.
Steven Avery
Evangelical Textual Criticism - thanks for responding.
Yes, moderators can do whatever they please.
However, this post was timely, continued a good discussion, was about a current topic, and was meant to help clarify the topic of 1 John 5:7 and the distigmai.
Many are not aware of the variant in 1 John 5:8 “and these three are one” being omitted in the earthly witnesses, a controversy active at the time of Sepulveda, so a possible explanation of the three dots that could be easily missed. Pretty good point.
So, I’ll send Philip Payne a personal note, requesting to continue here our conversation on the topic.
And yes, some censorship is actively announced. Any post that even hints at the possibility that Codex Sinaiticus is a recent production, focusing on textual, paleographical and historical issues, is one example.
Steven Avery