Romans 9:5 - CARM discussion - 2023

Steven Avery

Steven Avery

Administrator
Trinitarian confusion at Romans 9:5 (2022)
https://forums.carm.org/threads/trinitarian-confusion-at-romans-9-5.8316/

cjab
The problem with Sharp's rule is that it isn't comprehensive as people like Wallace make out. Thus it doesn't define what a proper name is. Languages changes, so do nouns change into proper names. In "New Testament Language and Exegesis: A Diachronic Approach" Chapter 6, investigating “The Nominative Used as Vocative” (pp. 171-188), Caragounis focuses on the use of θεός and finds that the LXX is the first work in Greek to use the vocative Θεέ (11 times; p. 177). At the same time, he notes that ὁ θεός is used as Vocative (at least in 60 cases), because the articular form “has a more exalted, a more distanced nuanced tone belonging to a more formal, solemn and elevated diction” (p. 180), findings which obtain equally for the NT (p. 181-184) and for Neohellenic (pp. 187-188).

Once you accept that by the New Testament era, θεός is well used to being used as a vocative, any application of Sharp's rule for Trinitarian purposes, which relies on θεός as being an ordinary noun, is abnegated. This includes Titus 2:13.
 
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Steven Avery

Steven Avery

Administrator
Romans 9:5 and Punctuation
https://forums.carm.org/threads/romans-9-5-and-punctuation.16968/


Our Lord's God said:
Your objective here is not to get the result you want but to discover Paul's intended message.

Consider these facts:

1. The word Eulogētos

Notice how this word is used exclusively in the NT to refer to the God of Jesus.

Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One." (Mark 14:61).

"Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel." (Luke 1:68).

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Corinthians 1:3).

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." (Ephesians 1:3).

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 1:3).

"They changed the truth of God into a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator who is Blessed to the ages. Amen." (Romans 1:25).

"The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ knows that I am not lying, he being Blessed to the ages."
(2 Corinthians 11:31).

"from whom the Christ according to the flesh. God who is over all be Blessed to the ages. Amen."
(Romans 9:5).


2. The Father is over all

one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all."
(Ephesians 4:6).

from whom the Christ according to the flesh. God who is over all be blessed to the ages. Amen."
(Romans 9:5).


3. Pauline Terminology & The Jewish Berakah

"The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, He who is blessed to the ages, knows that I do not lie." (2 Cor 11:31).

I am speaking the truth in Christ, I am not lying.... and from whom Christ according to the flesh. God who is over all be blessed to the ages. Amen." (Romans 9:5).


4. Paul is referring to a man of flesh who originated out of his Israelite ancestors. This man's God is someone else, the God of Israel.

"and out of whom the Christ according to the flesh."


5. The point of the overall passage is that the God of Israel gave Israel many blessings including God's Christ. Ending with a doxology to the God of Israel who is the God of Christ Jesus, is a natural thing to do in response to all these blessings the God of Israel & Jesus gave to Israel.
Click to expand...

We should study the difference between :

Romans 9:5
θεὸς εὐλογητὸς

And the verb put into the other ones to say:

"Blessed be"
"Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel." (Luke 1:68).
Luke 1:68 (KJV) Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
Εὐλογητὸς κύριος ὁ θεὸς

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Corinthians 1:3).
2 Corinthians 1:3 (KJV) Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." (Ephesians 1:3).
Ephesians 1:3 (KJV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 1:3).
1 Peter 1:3 (KJV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

"is blessed"
"They changed the truth of God into a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator who is Blessed to the ages. Amen." (Romans 1:25).
Romans 1:25 (KJV) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
not in italics
ὅς ἐστιν εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας ἀμήν

"being blessed"
"The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ knows that I am not lying, he being Blessed to the ages." (2 Corinthians 11:31).
2 Corinthians 11:31 (KJV) The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
not in italics
ὤν
ὁ ὢν εὐλογητὸς'

==============================

"be blessed
not in Romans:5

===============================

Christ is over all .. discussed separately
 
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