Henry Bradshaw on Sinaiticus - continuous quaternions or fasciculi

Steven Avery

Administrator
Henry Bradshaw in Jan of 1863 writing of July 1862 visit

Memoir of Henry Bradshaw
https://books.google.com/books?id=xeJGcDOaNRkC&pg=PA97
https://archive.org/details/amemoirhenrybra02protgoog/page/96/mode/2up

History of Information
https://www.historyofinformation.com/detail.php?id=4055
"On the 18th of July last I was at Leipzig with a friend, and we called on Professor Tischendorf. Though I had no introduction but my occupation at Cambridge, nothing could exceed his kindness ; we were with him for more than two hours, and I had the satisfaction of examining the manuscript after my own fashion. I had been anxious to know whether it was written in even continuous quaternions throughout, like the Codex Beza:, or in a series of fasciculi each ending with a quire of varying size, as the Codex Alexandrinus, and I found the latter to be the case. This, by-the-by, is of itself sufficient to prove that it cannot be the volume which Dr Simonides speaks of having written at Mount Athos. "
Why quires of varying sizes?
Why a claim that this was contra Simonides?
Was Tischendorf still assigning quire numbers at that time?
What is the first historical reference to the quire numbers?
How identifiable is the handwriting?


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Steven Avery

Administrator
Scrivener - "—why, is not quite clear—"
https://books.google.com/books?id=uFw21JtQRZkC&pg=PA129
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The vellum employed for Codex Bezae is arranged in quires of four sheets (or eight leaves) each even throughout 1

1 Bradshaw (Prothoro’s Momoirs, p. 97) in a letter to the Guardian, Jan. 28, 1868, writes thus :—'I saw Cod. א at Leipsig per Tischendorf. I had been curious to know whether it was written in even quaternions throughout, like the Cod. Bezae, or in a series of fasciculi, each onding with a quire of varying size, like the Cod. Alexandrinus, and I found the latter to be the case. This, by-tho-bye, is sufficient to prove'—why, is not quite clear—‘that it cannot be the volume which Dr. Simonides speaks of having written at Mount Athos.'

CARM
https://forums.carm.org/threads/cod...orge-the-codex-siniaticus.14468/#post-1131628
Followed by discussion where cjab assumes Bradshaw is correct without knowing what he means

Elliott p. 24

Henry Bradshaw, 1831-1886 (1984)
Roy Bishop Stokes
p. 97
https://books.google.com/books?id=u...=2ahUKEwj9z4ru7r2AAxVDFVkFHYGRBqoQ6AF6BAgMEAI

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David W. Daniels - Bradshaw is wrong


I have every page known of Sinaiticus
It is continuous quaternions, four sheets folded and sewn into a quire of 16 pages
It is not fascicules, where each one begins a new section, or anything like that

there are only a few places where the quire had less than four sheets.
So this guy is a jerk or a know-it-all
 
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Steven Avery

Administrator
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Steven Avery

Administrator
Codex Alexandrinus
https://books.google.com/books?id=pWHPBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA44
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P. 90
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Evangelical Textual Criticism (2014)
Peter Head
How Bad is Wikipedia? Codex Alexandrinus as a Test Case
http://evangelicaltextualcriticism....showComment=1392518201234#c243848788094668817

William Andrew Smith
Steven - Most of the corrections are fairly easy to make, but #6 will require knowing where the confusion originated. The problem most likely results from a misunderstanding of Thompson's comments in the introduction to volume 1 of the full-scale facsimile. When the NT volume of the facsimile was published (1879), he believed that most of the quires were composed of six leaves, but he corrected himself in volume 1 (1909), claiming that "when the MS. was re-bound in the present century, the quire-formation was disregarded, the leaves being separated and re-backed and made up into sets of six" (Facsimile of the Codex Alexandrinus [London: Trustees of the British Museum, 1879–1883], 1:8).
 
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Steven Avery

Administrator
There are two quires involving Revelation and Barnabas that are smaller quires, fewer leaves in each quire.

Zachary J. Cole describes the Revelation-Barnabas anomaly, while affirming the Sinaiticus norm of quires of 4 sheets, 8 leaves, 16 pages.

Numerals in Early Greek New Testament Manuscripts: Text-Critical, Scribal, and Theological Studies (2017)
https://books.google.com/books?id=B8zQDgAAQBAJ&pg=PA89

Interestingly, this portion of Revelation in א contains an anomaly in quire formation, a feature that may be related to the sudden use of abbreviated ordinals. Whereas the typical quire in א comprises four sheets folded in half (thus comprising eight leaves), quire 90, which contains the end of Revelation and beginning of Barnabas (Rev 20:10-22:21 and Barn. 1:1-14:4), comprises only three sheets (thus comprising six leaves). Quire 91 immediately follows, which is merely a single sheet quire (comprising two leaves) that contains the ending of Barnabas. The reason for the irregularity in makeup of quires 90 and 91 is not obvious, and multiple explanations are possible.

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https://forums.carm.org/threads/cod...e-codex-siniaticus.14468/page-10#post-1248534
John's gospel ends at Quire 81, Folio 6v, and then Romans starts at Quire 82, Folio 1r.
So what you say is untrue. Looking at OT books, there seem to be continuous quaternions, at least between end of Isaiah and start of Jeremiah (is all I've looked at).

Yes, a second anomaly, good catch.

Nazaroo (1957-2018) discusses that here.

Sinaiticus & Mark's Ending (Pt 11): Quire Structure - Synoptics
http://nazaroo.blogspot.com/2011/02/

An examination of the Quires by others has revealed the basic quire structure, and groupings of the folios. This is important, for it gives us important clues as to how the task of writing and compiling the NT was carried off.

The text was written quire by quire (in folded 8 folio sections). However, the planning was carried out on a larger scale, to calculate and provide just enough vellum (a very expensive material) for the task.

John was done separately, on two quires, beginning at the top of a new quire, and the second quire consisted of only three sheets (quire 81 has only 6 folios). The Collection of Paul's letters was begun also on a new quire (82-1), so we know that quire 81 probably never had 8 folios. (Paul follows John in Aleph. 1st Cor. begins immediately after Romans on folio 82-7 verso, column 3, showing that the letters were treated as a group and copied continuously in quires of 8).

However, Dirk Jongkind believes it began as an 8-leaf quire.
While he explains the basic structure, and the anomalies.

New Testament Manuscripts: Their Texts and Their World (2006)
edited by Thomas J Kraus, Tobias Nicklas
One Codex, Three Scribes, and Many Books: Struggles with Space in Codex Sinaiticus
Dirk Jongkind
https://books.google.com/books?id=oxJYEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA122

The basic physical unit of the codex is the quaternion, a gathering or quire of four sheets folded together. Thus, each quire consists of four sheets and eight folios, what makes 16 pages.4 Assuming that Hermas was the last book included in the original codex, it must have contained around 95 quires, of which 50 survive almost completely. Not all the extant quires are regular. Three quires, which started their life as standard eight-folio quires, have their last one or two folios cut out, apparently because these were left blank.5 Three other quires have less folios, because they were formed by using only one, two or three sheets.6 Despite the occasional glitch, the original design of the codex has been consistently followed throughout.


Quire 58 (the end of the Dodckaprophcton; two folios removed), quire 78 (the
end of Luke; one folio removed), and quire 80 the end of John; two folios removed).

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Steven Avery

Administrator
So you deliberately disparaged Bradshaw, knowing perfectly well that what he said was true.

Bradshaw was wrong, since dozens of quires are identical 8-leaf quires.
Consistent, against his false claim.

And this is not an argument against Athos production, and that idea was disparaged by Scrivener-Miller.

Dirk Jongkind
“The basic physical unit of the codex is the quaternion, a gathering or quire of four sheets folded together. Thus, each quire consists of four sheets and eight folios, what makes 16 pages.”

However, I did not have the full count till the quotes posted yesterday.
So your fake mind-reading is discarded as typical contra posturing.

Here you can see how Alexandrinus was seen as having variable quires in 22 spots.

A Study of the Gospels in Codex Alexandrinus: Codicology, Palaeography, and Scribal Hands (2014)
William Andrew Smith
https://books.google.com/books?id=pWHPBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA89

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So obviously the Sinaiticus arrangement is far more akin to Bezae than Alexandrinus. Alexandrinus is a complex mess.
The Bradshaw quote remains wrong on both elements.

Note that nobody has tried to justify the Bradshaw palaeographical argument against the Athos production of Sinaiticus at any time in the next 160 years.

And note that Bradshaw gave no actual real, solid arguments.
What we have is all "intuition" and a fake, deceptive, fraudulent codicology claim.

I had been anxious to know whether it was written in even continuous quaternions throughout, like the Codex Beza:, or in a series of fasciculi each ending with a quire of varying size, as the Codex Alexandrinus, and I found the latter to be the case. This, by-the-by, is of itself sufficient to prove that it cannot be the volume which Dr Simonides speaks of having written at Mount Athos. "

We can also conclude that it was unlikely that he saw any 1844 CFA leaves in the vicinity of the darker, stained 1859 pages.
Worthless.
 

Steven Avery

Administrator
https://www.facebook.com/groups/ioscs/posts/3565535713684501/

Also Jongkind on John (does he have two mentions?
Quire 58 (the end of the Dodckapropheton; two folios removed), - end of Malachi
quire 78 (the end of Luke; one folio removed), and - this is 79 correction maybe leaves or sheets, not folio
quire 80 the end of John; two folios removed). - this is 81 Correction - maybe leaves or sheets, not folio

1 Maccabees - Quire 41 - 4 leaves
Malachi - Quire 58 - 6 leaves
Luke Quire 79 - 7 leaves
John - Quire 81, 6 leaves
Revelation - Quire 91 - 6 leaves
Barnabas - Quire 92 - 2 leaves
 
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Steven Avery

Administrator
No, it's what Simonides clearly said - and he was so clear about it, he even referred to the book covers and their having been replaced at the book binders. He would have known the Codex Alexandrinus was bound. He says NOTHING about rebinding the quires.

Everyone knows you do not write a lined text into an uneven bulky bound volume.
Except you, and possibly Bradshaw.

Calligraphy and Codicology 101 .

And the book covers being replaced was simply a part of the process.

=========

Any rebinding of quires would not be the job of Simonides.

And I have no idea the relevance of your Codex Alexandrinus mind-reading analysis.
 

Steven Avery

Administrator
Journal of Sacred Literature

Again, on February 4, the Guardian gave us these:—

“Sir,—I have three antagonists this week, to all of whom I shall reply in one
letter. The conversation in the library of the University of Cambridge seems
to have been an unfortunate one, for certainly Mr. Wright has not represented
correctly as said to him what I said to my interpreter; and on the other hand I
am afraid, from Mr. Brad.show’s letter, that I have misunderstood the meaning
of his expressions to me conveyed through the same channel.

“I understood him to say that he had indeed seen and examined the Codex Sinaiticus at Leipzig, but that he should have given it a very different examination if he had then had any idea that it would be claimed as a modern production: that, on the contrary, he took it as a matter of course that it was ancient, on the authority of Tischendorf. Will Mr. Bradshaw have the kindness to explain more clearly his argument about the arrangement of the leaves, which I, for my part, do not understand ?
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Steven Avery

Administrator
CARM
https://forums.carm.org/threads/cod...e-codex-siniaticus.14468/page-14#post-1271935

From Milne and Skeat p. 13

It may be noted here that Tischendorf (Prolegomena, p. 7) errs in calling the last quire of John a ternion; actually it is a regular quaternion, but the last two leaves, left blank by the scribe, have been cut out by some vellum-hunter, the stubs being glued down to the verso of the last remaining leaf of the quire. The same fate has befallen two blank leaves which originally came after the end of Malachi, and a single blank leaf after the end of Luke.

More problems for the Bradshaw attempt.

================================

Simonides did ask for more clarification as to what was his point.

Journal of Sacred Literature
https://books.google.com/books?id=_bYRAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA485

“I understood him to say that he had indeed seen and examined the Codex Sinaiticus at Leipzig, but that he should have given it a very different examination if he had then had any idea that it would be claimed as a modern production: that, on the contrary, lie took it as a matter of course that it was ancient, on the authority of Tischendorf. Will Mr. Bradshaw have the kindness to explain more clearly his argument about the arrangement of the leaves, which I, for my part, do not understand?"
=================================

Excellent points from Simonides, especially on the faux authority of Tischendorf affecting Bradshaw's thinking, and Bradshaw not even thinking about why the beautiful young parchment was called ancient. Simply because the issue had not yet arisen. Just take Tischendorf's word.

And we do not see any answer from Henry Bradshaw to Simonides.
Maybe Bradshaw realized he was out on a limb.

=================================


Milne and Skeat offered more on p. 72:


The quires never exceed eight leaves. Major divisions of the text always begin on a new quire, even if the preceding quire has not been completely filled. Leaves left blank in this way have been cut out in antiquity from quires 58, 78, and 80, which were originally all normal quaternions (cf. p. 13 and the Table, pp. 100, 107, 108). Occasionally, however, to obviate such waste of vellum, smaller quires have been used. Quire 41, for example, consists of four leaves only, ending exactly with the end of 1 Maccabees. Quire 90, of six leaves, was presumably judged sufficient for the ending of Revelation and the whole of Barnabas; when it proved inadequate, an extra quire (g2) of two leaves only (cf. p. 13) was added to take the conclusion of the Epistle.
 
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Steven Avery

Administrator
CARM

It is to Daniels discredit that he goes way beyond Simonides' account to imagine that the entire book and every quire was completely disbound by Simonides. It shows the extent to which the votaries of Simonides apologize for him.

The key issue is that the covers were definitely off, you thought they were writing into the bound book, covers on!
The discredit is all yours.

We missed this:

Journal of Sacred Literature (1863)
https://books.google.com/books?id=ybYRAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA249

"...induced me to hand the work over at once to the bookbinders of the monastery, for the purpose of replacing the original covers, made of wood and covered with leather, which I had removed for convenience – and when he had done so, I took it into my possession."

Who Faked the "World’s Oldest Bible"? (2021)
By David W. Daniels
https://books.google.com/books?id=Ap83EAAAQBAJ&pg=RA1-PA17

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