reigned from the tree

[Steven Avery]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/NTT...d=738918919528444&offset=0&total_comments=116

"reigned from the tree" - Justin Martyr and Tertullian quoting from "LXX"
Here are references:
The First Apology of Justin, the Martyr
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/richardson/fathers.x.ii.iii.html
41. And again in another prophecy the prophetic Spirit, testifying through the same David that after being crucified Christ would reign, said: "O sing to the Lord, all the earth, and proclaim his salvation from day to day; for great is the Lord and highly to be praised, terrible beyond all the gods. For all the gods of the nations are images of demons, but God made the heavens. Glory and praise are before him, and strength and pride in the place of his sanctification. Give glory to the Lord, the Father of the ages. Receive favor and go in before his face and worship in his holy courts. Let all the earth fear before him, and be set upright and not shaken. Let them exult among the nations; the Lord has reigned from the tree.
* 757 Ps. 96 (95): 1, 2, 4–10, also in I Chron. 16:23, 25–31. Justin's variations from the LXX include "images of demons" where LXX has "demons" in Ps. 95, "images" in I Chron.; "Father of the ages" for "families of the nations"; "receive favor" (charin) for "take offerings"; and the addition "from the tree," otherwise known only to Latin Christian writers whose acquaintance with it may derive from him; he defends this reading in Dial., ch. 73, arguing that the Jews have deliberately omitted it (although in the MS. the psalm is then quoted as in LXX, perhaps due to collation by a copyist; it seems that Justin knew an eccentric text, possibly from liturgical use.
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Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho - Chapter 73
http://www.bombaxo.com/trypho.html
also different translation
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.iv.lxxiii.html
"Furthermore, from a verse of the ninety-fifth Psalm of David they have left out the short phrase, 'from the tree.' For they have changed the verse, 'Say to the Gentiles: The Lord has reigned from the tree,' to 'Say to the Gentiles: The Lord has reigned' [Ps 95.10]. [2] Now, no one of your people was ever said to have reigned as God and King over the Gentiles, except the Crucified One, who (as the Holy Spirit testifies in the same Psalm) was freed from death by His resurrection, and thus showed that He is not like gods of the Gentiles, for they are but the idols of demons. [3] To clarify this point, I will repeat the whole Psalm for you. It is as follows: 'Sing to the Lord a new canticle; sing to the Lord, all the earth. Sing to the Lord and bless His name; show forth His salvation from day to day. Declare His glory among the Gentiles; His wonders among all people. For the Lord is great, and exceedingly to be praised; He is to be feared above all gods. For all the gods of the Gentiles are devils; but the Lord made the heavens. Praise and beauty are before Him; holiness and majesty in His sanctuary. Bring to the Lord, O you kindred of the Gentiles, bring to the Lord glory and honor, bring to the Lord glory unto His name. [4] Bring up sacrifices, and come unto His courts. Adore the Lord in His holy court. Let all the earth be moved at His presence. Say among the Gentiles, the Lord has reigned from the tree. For he has established the world, which will not be moved; He will judge the people with justice. Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad. Let the sea be moved, and its bounty. The fields and all things that are in them will be joyful. Then all the trees of the woods rejoice before the face of the Lord, because He comes; because He comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world with justice, and the people with His truth' [Ps 95.1-13] "
[5] "Only God knows," remarked Trypho, "whether or not our leaders have deleted portions of the Scriptures as you say. But such an assertion seems incredible."
[6] "Yes," I agreed, "it does seem incredible. For it is more dreadful than the erecting of the golden calf (which they made while still satiated with the manna that fell to earth), and more revolting than the sacrifice of their children to demons, or the slaughter of the Prophets. You, indeed, appear not to have even heard of the Scriptures which I said they had mutilated. But the many passages which I have already cited, together with those which you have preserved, and which are still to be quoted are more than enough to prove the points at issue."
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Tertullian Against Marcion - Book III - Chapter XIX
http://books.google.com/books?id=U12Lzz46n74C&pg=PA157
Come, now, if you have read in the utterance of the prophet in the Psalms, "God has reigned from the tree," I wait to hear what you understand thereby; for fear you may perhaps think some carpenter-king is signified, and not Christ, who has reigned from that time onward when he overcame the death which ensued from His passion of "the tree."
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Tertullian
An Answer to the Jews - Ch. 13
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0308.htm
Similarly, again, Isaiah says: "For a child is born to us, and to us is given a son." What novelty is that, unless he is speaking of the "Son" of God?— and one is born to us the beginning of whose government has been made "on His shoulder." What king in the world wears the ensign of his power on his shoulder, and does not bear either diadem on his head, or else sceptre in his hand, or else some mark of distinctive vesture? But the novel "King of ages," Christ Jesus, alone reared "on His shoulder" His own novel glory, and power, and sublimity—the cross, to wit; that, according to the former prophecy, the Lord thenceforth "might reign from the tree." For of this tree likewise it is that God hints, through Jeremiah, that you would say, "Come, let us put wood into his bread, and let us wear him away out of the land of the living; and his name shall no more be remembered." Of course on His body that "wood" was put; for so Christ has revealed, calling His body "bread," whose body the prophet in bygone days announced under the term "bread."
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And there are a number of commentaries as to how this was in a text of Justin Martyr.

 

[Steven Avery]

KJV Only Debate Blog » Let the Minutiae Speak

web.archive.org

September 2, 2010 at 7:44 am

Hi Folks,


“Dr DiVietro meant the LXX as it is commonly understood: the Greek translation of the OT, which included more than just the Pentateuch”


There is no “common understanding of the term”. And the most literal scholarly understanding is opposite what you claim. When referring to the translation referenced in the Letter of Aristeas (the most literal understanding) scholars generally agree that is a reference to a translation of the Pentateuch, sans other books.


redgreen5
“both Jew and Greek had been using the same, original LXX (allowing, of course, for local scribal variations”


However, this is not what Wurthwein says:


“The earliest translations of the Scriptures in written form (the Old Septuagint) were pioneer undertakings accomplished without adequate tools (lexicons, etc.). Even before the Christian era, perhaps from the very first, comparing these translations with the Hebrew text revealed them to be inadequate and inspired (sic) efforts to bring the Greek text more into conformity with the Hebrew original. (p. 54) … even prior to Jewish-Christian discussions there had been a trend toward conforming the Greek to the Hebrew text. (p.55)


So not only is Wurthwein talking about “translations” plural but also various editions and changes unto “conformity”. So there is no recognizable “same, original” LXX .. that is simply a myth.


And what is improperly called the “LXX” today in printed editions if from the manuscripts more than 500 years later, incorporating various corruptions and competing tamperings, after one of the worst transmissional histories possible (including competing doctrinal tamperings). ie. The “LXX” editions today are based on good old super-corrupt Vaticanus, with some assistance from Sinaiticus and Alexandrinus or it is based on the widely differing Greek Orthodox text.


And I’ll let you go back and forth with Kirk DiVietro. I find that since the definition of “LXX” is so squirrelly, as shown above, that discussions get bogged down in various nuances of what the word is supposed to mean. Everybody likes to refer to “the LXX” yet if there was such a text it was probably Pentateuch only and not recognizable in any text in the world today, making its usage problematic.


Notice this from Wurthwein:


“In the course of time Christian insertions crept into the text, as in Ps. 95, Ps. 13. and elsewhere.”


This is one aspect (in addition to dubious methodology) that makes all these verse studies problematic, since the text called the LXX today is corrupt with “Christian” alexandrian smoothings (tamperings) like Psalm 14. So you can be studying a Greek manuscript from the 4th or 5th century that was highly modified to relate to the NT better, and the scholars study will falsely place that 4th century text as pre-NT for the purposes of the study. An anachronistic blunder.


In fact, corruptions are very early, as indicated by the Justin Martyr textual blunderama references (this is not a reference to Isaiah 7:14).


Justin Martyr and his references in Psalms and Jeremiah and elsewhere and the discussion of Isaiah are interesting, showing Christian usage of some Greek OT in the 2nd century and a lot of blunders and errors already being made in Christian apologetics on this score, perhaps because of early textual tampering.


Such as “reigned from the tree” (or wood) extant today in no manuscript in any language, even Greek. Opinions on this vary widely and solid analysis is hard to find (it would be good to find and read Skarsaune) however it looks to be proof that very significant tampering with the Greek OT manuscripts was done as early as the 1st and 2nd centuries.


These two editions includes some notes on the verses, the discussion focuses on chapters 71-73.


Dialogue with Trypho (2003)
Michael Slusser
http://books.google.com/books?id=WBXUNkYU_bwC&pg=PA111
Thomas B. Falls
http://books.google.com/books?id=molt0n94JLoC&pg=PA262


leading to the embarrassment of the fabrication of the phrase in Psalm 95 and other huge problems.


Also, the availability of one Greek manuscript from around the time of the NT of the minor prophets extant in the world today is worth lots of study, yet it does not indicate wide circulation.


Incidentally, Wurthwein does not mention the Josephus reference that indicates the lack of historical books circulating in the 1st century.


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Redgreen5 on R. Grant Jones
“quotes from the Torah (first five books of Moses) agreed 100% with the LXX whenever quoted in the NT.”


You are referencing a study that has lots of methodological problems, (at least R. Grant Jones acknowledges no expertise in Greek or Hebrew) but I would like you to actually quote the study, so we can can compare it with your assertion above, which looks very, very strange. Rarely does any NT reference agree 100% with either the extant GOT or the Masoretic Text, making the statement simply false on face.


Shalom,
Steven Avery

 

[Steven Avery]

Haydock
https://christianity.stackexchange....d-prophesy-god-ruling-the-nations-from-a-tree
https://www.ecatholic2000.com/haydock/untitled-671.shtml
https://catenabible.com/com/5735e1f5ec4bd7c9723be2fd

Ver. 10. Reigned. St. Bernard says, "the kingdom of Jesus is in the wood." (Du Hamel) --- St. Justin Martyr (Dialogue with Trypho) accuses the Jews of retrenching apo tou xulou, "from the wood," which all the Latin Fathers, except St. Jerome, acknowledge in their copies. That ancient author, being born among the Samaritans, could hardly be so ignorant of the Hebrew text, and his antagonist does not attempt to refute the charge; so that it seems probable, that they were in the original, (Berthier) and since erased by the Jews, from the Septuagint, who added them, (Worthington) by the spirit of prophecy. (Tournemine) --- But how came Christians to permit this to be done in their Hebrew, Greek, and Latin copies? The words in question may have been, therefore, a marginal gloss, which had crept into the text. (Faber, Justiniani, &c.) --- They do not occur in the parallel passage, (1 Paralipomenon) nor in the Vulgate, though they be retained in the Roman breviary. (Calmet) --- Lindan objects this perfidy of the Jews to the Reformers, not reflecting, that he thus condemns the Vulgate. Genebrard is of opinion, that "the Septuagint were inspired to add these words, which some half-learned critics have thought proper to expunge with an impiety which is now but too common." The Popes have not, however, thought that the cross stood in need of this support. (Amama) --- The Chaldean and Syriac, as well as all the copies of the Septuagint extant, and the Arabic and Ethiopic versions taken from it, and all the Greek interpreters and Fathers, (except St. Justin) with St. Jerome, both in his versions from the Hebrew and Septuagint, omit these words, which are found in the Roman, Gothic, and other psalters. Origen's Hexapla seem to have most enabled the Greeks to discern the interpolation, which the Latins retained longer, not having such easy access to that work. Whatever may be the decision on this important matter, it is certain that the reign of Christ was propagated from the wood, in a wonderful manner, as he there began to draw all to himself, and the prophet seems evidently to allude to the times when Christ proclaimed, the kingdom of God is at hand, and when the conversion of the Gentiles, and the institution of the blessed Eucharist (ver. 8.) would fill all the world with rapture. (Haydock) --- The positive testimony of St. Justin, and the Italic version used by the Latin Fathers, (Berthier) Tertullian, St. Augustine, &c., (Worthington) seems of more weight to prove the authenticity of the words, than the simple omission in the copies of Origen, and St. Jerome, &c., to evince the contrary. (Berthier) --- Corrected. Evil morals and idolatry, (Menochius) rather than the physical order of the globe, Psalm xcii. 1. (Berthier) --- Hebrew, "he hath balanced," (Houbigant) or established. (Haydock) --- The Christian faith shall not be abolished, (Menochius) or corrected. (Haydock) --- "Faith is not to be reformed." (Tertullian) --- Justice. Ancient psalters add, "and the Gentiles in his wrath," ver. 13., and Psalm xcviii. 8.