Romans 9:5 trichotomy interpretation - identity, high Christology, Unitarian - errors on both sides!

Brianrw

Member
The source words of a compound adjective individually can be "adjectives, nouns, quantifiers, participles, and adverbs." Yet they are working as one unit in an adjectival manner.
We are not dealing with a quantifier or adverb.

English Compound Adjective​

In a compound adjective beginning with a noun, we would be looking at a juxtaposed adjective or participle verb. Some examples of a noun + adjective construction are "sea-green, sky-blue, gluten-free." Examples of a noun + participle verb are "air-dried, wind-swept" In the latter case, a verbal action is being described, and this is specifically the case you are insisting here. Participle verbs are verbs ending in -ed and -ing, and are often described as "verbal adjectives." In Romans 9:5, you would be looking at a compound noun + past participle verb. Already, we are in conflict with the Greek, which should not happen.

Greek does not allow a noun and an adjective of the same case (nominative) to function as a compound.​

Greek is inflected, which exposes further problems with your reading. The accusative case, not the nominative, allows a noun to act as the direct object of a verb or the object of a preposition. The genitive case can also act as the object of a preposition. Because ὁ Χριστὸς is in the nominative, and θεὸς is in the nominative, θεὸς cannot modify ὁ Χριστὸς in that way. One or the other needs to take the accusative case for this to happen, and a verb will be involved. For example:

Ο Θεός (nominative) ευλόγησεν (verb) τον Χριστόν (accusative)
"God has blessed Christ"​
Ο Χριστός (nominative) είναι ευλογημένος (auxiliary verb + verb) από (preposition) τον Θεόν (accusative)
"Christ is blessed by God"​

There is nothing in the grammar that allows a juxtaposed nominative noun and nominative adjective to act like a compound. We have two generic options in this case: (1) convert θεὸς into the accusative θεόν, or the genitive θεοῦ, and involve the verbal form of εὐλογητὸς (εὐλογέω) together with a preposition, or (3) dramatically rewrite the sentence where τον Χριστόν (not ὁ Χριστὸς) is involved. As it is, εὐλογητὸς is in the predicate position in the Greek. That does not mean where it is located before or after the noun, it means it is placed next to a noun yet does not have the article.

Greek forms compound adjectives a different way, by joining words together. For example, αγουροξυπνημένος is άγουρος (unripe) + ξυπνάω (to wake up). A lazy, idle person is described as χασομέρης, from χάνω (to miss) + μέρα (day).

Because θεὸς follows in an attributive participle construction involving an equative clause, θεὸς is a predicate nominative to "Christ." That's just how the grammar works. We either bring it in as a predicate, "who is God over all" or as an apposition, "who is over all, God."

This is also why your "God Almighty" and "lamp bright" proposed analogies were worthless.
To the contrary, "a lamp (noun) bright (predicate adjective) enough to lighten the room" demonstrates a predicative use of the adjective "bright" that sets off a new clause without requiring the introduction of a comma or verb, which you insist cannot be done. English allows this form of construction, where the verbal equation (in this case, "that is") is implied. The same happens here where in English, just as it is in the Greek, "blessed" acts as a predicate nominative that sets off the clause "blessed forever."

What your interpretation would require:​

Ο Χριστός, ο ων επί πάντων, (είναι) ευλογημένος από τον Θεόν εις τους αιώνας
 

Steven Avery

Administrator
We are not dealing with a quantifier or adverb.

English Compound Adjective​

In a compound adjective beginning with a noun, we would be looking at a juxtaposed adjective or participle verb. Some examples of a noun + adjective construction are "sea-green, sky-blue, gluten-free." Examples of a noun + participle verb are "air-dried, wind-swept" In the latter case, a verbal action is being described, and this is specifically the case you are insisting here. Participle verbs are verbs ending in -ed and -ing, and are often described as "verbal adjectives." In Romans 9:5, you would be looking at a compound noun + past participle verb. Already, we are in conflict with the Greek, which should not happen.

The English of this is so simple.

God blessed is a compound adjective in a sentence like.

Christ is God blessed.
The Christian saints are God blessed.
Israel, through its Messiah, is God blessed.

It is not a compound adjective in a sentence like:

God blessed the creation.

Genesis 1:28 (AV)
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Or if there is a comma after God.
God, blessed

=======================

You are so convoluted on the English, and so weak on your various claims like apposition, commas and hyphens, that I just put your Greek claims off to the side for consideration.
 

Brianrw

Member
It's like I said, the compound adjective, if we allow it here, would involve a noun and a participle verb. The Greek does not allow a compound adjective here, in any way. And in no uncertain terms, neither does it allow the adjective to come into English as a participle verb. The essentially unanimous consent of the ancient Greek writers ought to cue you in on this.

Greek and English must match meanings. The meaning of the scriptures should not change over time. If you are looking at a scenario where the way you are reading the English cannot be supported by the Greek, then you are reading it wrongly.

The English of this is so simple.

God blessed is a compound adjective in a sentence like.

Christ is God blessed.
The Christian saints are God blessed.
That's a noun + participle verb construction. This would be one word, not two, in the Greek. Otherwise, the case of either "God" or "Christ" neads to change in order to allow a construction involving a verb and a preposition. After that, what you write is not even an adjective but a verbal construction. And not one I recall ever hearing before you. So far, out of all the people I've communicated this to, you are the only one who's reading it this way.

It is not a compound adjective in a sentence like:

God blessed the creation.

Or if there is a comma after God.
God, blessed
Language is a deliberate process, thus there are rules for it. A lot of effort and debate has gone into developing and standardizing it. Essentially, what I see is that you're ignoring the actual rules themselves and insisting what is convenient to you. You've loaded up natural association by Murray J. Harris with the idea he is asserting a compound adjective. If he had, why do you suppose that thought (had he meant it as you interpret) never goes anywhere? Why does he say, instead, that "God blessed forever" is one of his two favored readings, both of which ("appositional (or predicative)") affirm Christ is "God by nature"? (pp. 166-168)

Appositives are set off by a comma. Elliptical statements function where words have been omitted from the context, but they are not replaced by a comma. You got natural association from Harris describing the Greek, and you seem to believe it means the words in Greek are a compound adjective, yet nowhere does Harris ever assert such a thing, and the Greek does not support it.
 
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Steven Avery

Administrator
You've loaded up natural association by Murray J. Harris with the idea he is asserting a compound adjective. If he had, why do you suppose that thought (had he meant it as you interpret) never goes anywhere? Why does he say, instead, that "God blessed forever" is one of his two favored readings, both of which ("appositional (or predicative)") affirm Christ is "God by nature"? (pp. 166-168)
Harris was inconsistent. A compound adjective would be one natural association. Another would be to say God blessed Israel, or Christ.
 

Brianrw

Member
A compound adjective would be one word in the Greek, not two. Compound adjectives don't take the same form in Greek. And now you're feeding in a new interpretation that means God has blessed Israel?

Case in point where a Unitarian, Abbot, had every chance to understand the passage both in the Greek and English as you do, but clearly didn't when it otherwise would have benefitted him to do so:

abbot_p122.jpg

It does not even seem to occur to him, and to the contrary it is very clear he understands the passage in the AV is indeed speaking of Christ as "God," but considers (in typical fashion) the Greek text instead "of doubtful construction."
 

Steven Avery

Administrator
Appositives are set off by a comma. Elliptical statements function where words have been omitted from the context, but they are not replaced by a comma.

You are just making things up.

The first sentence is nonsense.

Rule: When an appositive is essential to the meaning of the noun it belongs to, don't use commas. When the noun preceding the appositive provides sufficient identification on its own, use commas around the appositive. Example: Jorge Torres, our senator, was born in California.

Commas with Appositives
https://www.grammarbook.com/blog/commas/commas-with-appositives/

“Use commas around the appositive.”

Your second sentence is gibberish. Not worth trying to unpack.

Again, your English is weak.
I’ll plan on adding this to your English errors thread.
 

Steven Avery

Administrator
And now you're feeding in a new interpretation that means God has blessed Israel?

This was mentioned by a gentleman named Steve Owen on the grammar forum. And I acknowledged that this offers a fourth interpretation of the AV text, either Israel or Israel through its Messiah.
 

Brianrw

Member
“Use commas around the appositive.”
Here's a good blog from Grammarly, which should be read in full since the rule above is stated incompletely.

Show the single Greek word for wind-swept and your other examples.

What is the one Greek word for “God blessed“ as a compound adjective?
The Greek for wind-swept is ανεμοδαρμένος (adjective). To my knowledge, there is no adjective in Greek that means "God blessed," and ὁ . . . θεὸς εὐλογητὸς does not mean "blessed by God." At all. You would have to change the whole Greek construction to arrive at the meaning "blessed by God." I gave you two options above. It's literally not so simple as you think.

Greek forms compound adjectives (of the type you are referring to) by the joining of words together, that's why I said to make a compound adjective in English such as you pretend you would only have an adjective in Greek. Greek doesn't just juxtapose a noun and an adjective in the nominative to form a compound adjective. That's you're problem, I don't know why you refuse to listen and learn, why you think you can read the Greek like English, and why you think I'm lying to you. You have absolutely no Greek background, but you seem to want to impart to others something for which you have nothing to impart. So what are you trying to do, exactly?

I'm not sure who Steve Owen is, but I assume you didn't receive a satisfactory response from him either? I don't see you receiving any positive feedback from the stir you're generating:


This was mentioned by a gentleman named Steve Owen on the grammar forum. And I acknowledged that this offers a fourth interpretation of the AV text, either Israel or Israel through its Messiah.
It seems any meaning at all is acceptable to you, except for that one which has been traditionally passed down within the Church, and which was understood at the time of the AV translation until the present time. You're literally using every interpretation you can to avoid the one.

Again, your English is weak.
I’ll plan on adding this to your English errors thread.
:ROFLMAO:
 

Steven Avery

Administrator
I'm not sure who Steve Owen is, but I assume you didn't receive a satisfactory response from him either?

You are very confused.
His response was excellent, showing a fourth interpretation I had missed.
Giving value-added to my question.
(Bernard on BCHF is similar.)

Structurally, his explanation of Israel is similar to that of God blessing Christ.

God blesses Christ
God blesses Israel
God blesses Israel and/through its Messiah.

All are more sensible than your mangling the AV text.
None has apposition.
(Nor attempts like that of Clement of Rome and others.)

We also clarified your double-ellipsis excellently.

Now granted, it is hard for anyone to read the AV text without presuppositions.
 
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Steven Avery

Administrator
Here's a good blog from Grammarly, which should be read in full since the rule above is stated incompletely.


The Greek for wind-swept is ανεμοδαρμένος (adjective). To my knowledge, there is no adjective in Greek that means "God blessed," and ὁ . . . θεὸς εὐλογητὸς does not mean "blessed by God." At all. You would have to change the whole Greek construction to arrive at the meaning "blessed by God." I gave you two options above. It's literally not so simple as you think.

Greek forms compound adjectives (of the type you are referring to) by the joining of words together, that's why I said to make a compound adjective in English such as you pretend you would only have an adjective in Greek. Greek doesn't just juxtapose a noun and an adjective in the nominative to form a compound adjective. That's you're problem, I don't know why you refuse to listen and learn, why you think you can read the Greek like English, and why you think I'm lying to you. You have absolutely no Greek background, but you seem to want to impart to others something for which you have nothing to impart. So what are you trying to do, exactly?

I'm not sure who Steve Owen is, but I assume you didn't receive a satisfactory response from him either? I don't see you receiving any positive feedback from the stir you're generating:



It seems any meaning at all is acceptable to you, except for that one which has been traditionally passed down within the Church, and which was understood at the time of the AV translation until the present time. You're literally using every interpretation you can to avoid the one.


:ROFLMAO:
 

Brianrw

Member
You are very confused.
His response was excellent, showing a fourth interpretation I had missed.
Giving value-added to my question.
(Bernard on BCHF is similar.)

Structurally, his explanation of Israel is similar to that of God blessing Christ.

God blesses Christ
God blesses Israel
God blesses Israel and its Messiah.

All are more sensible than your mangling the AV text.
None has apposition.
(Nor attempts like that of Clement of Rome and others.)

We also clarified your double-ellipsis excellently.

Now granted, it is hard for anyone to read the AV text without presuppositions.
All of the above are verbal constructions, and I suspect you steered the conversation much as you did on Reddit. He may want to be informed that the word "blessed" is translated from an adjective, which anyone can verify here. See how that changes things. A link would be helpful. Thanks!

It's not very nice that you truncated my quote above by removing the extremely condescending comment the emoji was in response to, namely:

Steven Avery said:
Again, your English is weak.
I’ll plan on adding this to your English errors thread.
 
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Steven Avery

Administrator
The Greek for wind-swept is ανεμοδαρμένος (adjective). To my knowledge, there is no adjective in Greek that means "God blessed," and ὁ . . . θεὸς εὐλογητὸς does not mean "blessed by God." At all. You would have to change the whole Greek construction to arrive at the meaning "blessed by God." I gave you two options above. It's literally not so simple as you think.

Greek forms compound adjectives (of the type you are referring to) by the joining of words together, that's why I said to make a compound adjective in English such as you pretend you would only have an adjective in Greek. Greek doesn't just juxtapose a noun and an adjective in the nominative to form a compound adjective.

So you were wrong about there being one word. That is true when there is an existing compound word in Greek, but when not you use two words, whatever the construction has to be (a matter of discussion, e.g. you and Spin on BCHF).

You constantly say whatever seems convenient, true or false.
 

Steven Avery

Administrator
All of the above are verbal constructions, and I suspect you steered the conversation much as you did on Reddit. He may want to be informed that the word "blessed" is translated from an adjective, which anyone can verify here. See how that changes things. A link would be helpful. Thanks!

We are discussing the double ellipsis, and he also has the same problem you have, humorous circular reasoning involving apposition and ellipsis.

Our discussion was about the English text of the AV, so it would confuse the discussion to being in the Greek.
You can post, if you like, but I suggest you make sure you say that your comment is NOT about how to read the AV text.
 

Steven Avery

Administrator
Here's a good blog from Grammarly, which should be read in full since the rule above is stated incompletely.

Fantastic. Grammarly confirms your error on what has become a fundamental point, your false claim that your theorized apposition in the English AV text does not need a comma after God.

After:

Use Commas to frame non-restrictive elements
Frédéric Chopin, a Polish composer, was one of the most celebrated virtuoso pianists of his day.

It gives the exception.

Commas and Restrictive Elements Don’t Mix

When an appositive noun or noun phrase contains an essential element without which a sentence’s meaning would materially alter, do not frame it with commas.
My friend Bill owes me fifty dollars.

Notice that this example has ZERO commas. (Did you even read the page??)
Thus it is obviously irrelevant to your Romans 9:5 claims, where you falsely claim that the singular comma before "God blessed.." creates the apposition.

You should acknowledge your blunder on this point and look at the English text with a tabula rasa.
 
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Steven Avery

Administrator
Another support of the trichotomy
https://adventistbiblicalresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/Problems-in-Bible-Translations.pdf


Most authorities agree that the grammatical structure does not forbid the ascription of praise to God, although there is some difficulty with the participle on. The presence of on in ho on epi pan ton theos makes theos the predicate of the sentence. This excludes the translation “He who is God over all be (or is) blessed forever.” It still permits, however, the translation

“He who is over all is God blessed for ever.”

Which is God blessing Christ for ever.
 

Brianrw

Member
Now that you've gone on about this, are you going to provide the Steve Owen link?

One of the difficulties I have with your approach is that you are not actually trying to understand the grammar or weigh an argument. Yo have a habit of deciding someone is wrong and then seeking a way to demonstrate that, and that means in a rush to be right you'll take up errors and back yourself into a corner you'll not really get yourself out of. Here, you're just picking a rule you think best suits your argument, but not the actual rule in question.

Always bookend a nonrestrictive, appositive noun or phrase with commas in the middle of a sentence. If the noun or phrase is placed at the end of a sentence, it should be preceded by a comma.
Your rules also do not account for the fact that the apposition is following a relative clause bracketed by commas.

So you were wrong about there being one word.
You seem to have misunderstood my point. If you want a compound adjective in the Greek, they are formed into one word, not two words together in the nominative. If that one adjectival word does not exist, you can construct a prepositional phrase using a verb and preposition in the accusative case, or a preposition and the genitive case, etc.
 
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Steven Avery

Administrator
Now that you've gone on about this, are you going to provide the Steve Owen link?

the English text of the Authorized Version on Romans 9:5 - what is the simplest, clearest interpretation -
Christianity Stack Exchange
https://christianity.stackexchange....rpretation-of-the-english-text-of-the-authori

The url was here, but not placed clearly as the other request spot.

Wycliffe, Tyndale, Coverdale, Matthew's Bible, Great Bible, Geneva Bible, Bishops' Bible, JND and Green's Literal Bible. And the Douay Rheims.
https://christianity.stackexchange....f-the-english-text-of-the-authori/87373#87373
 
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