+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 5 of 5

Thread: NT Textual Criticism - 2014 - Metzger and Westcott-Hort acknowledge solecism

  1. Default NT Textual Criticism - 2014 - Metzger and Westcott-Hort acknowledge solecism

    NT Textual Criticism - June 3, 2014
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/NTTe...5358070217863/

    1 Timothy 3:16 (AV)
    And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
    God was manifest in the flesh,
    justified in the Spirit,
    seen of angels,
    preached unto the Gentiles,
    believed on in the world,
    received up into glory.


    Metzger:
    ...since the neuter relative pronoun ὅ must have arisen as a scribal correction of ὅς (to bring the relative into concord with μυστήριον)
    Now, notice that this is first of all an acknowledgment of the Greek solecism. The lack of any concord for the hanging relative pronoun.

    And the blunder ὅς in the Metzger economy was immediately being corrected by scribes in the 1st and 2nd centuries ... in time for all the versional translations. (Then the ὃ was some how reverting back to ὅς.) Occam, we have a problem.
    Lest anyone thing that Metzger was original in this thinking, rather than acting as a hortian speech-writer updater (reducing turgid prose to monotonous and repetitive error) .. let's go to:

    =================

    The New Testament in the Original Greek (1881)
    Westcott & Hort
    http://books.google.com/books?id=gZ4...J&pg=RA1-PA133

    The Western ὅ is a manifest correction of ὅς , intended to remedy the apparent breach of concord between the relative and τὸ μυστήριον ... the change from ὅς to θεός would be facilitated, if it was not caused, by the removal of an apparent solecism ....

    ==================

    So W&H actually theorize two distinct changes caused by the solecism.

    The "apparent" breach of concord and the "apparent" solecism must have been quite apparent to those who modified the corruption text (in the hort-metzger cabal of textual theory.)


    Murray J. Harris (Jesus as God: The New Testament Use of Theos in Reference to Jesus) and James Keith Elliott (The Greek Text of the Epistles to Timothy and Titus) reference from W & H the "apparent" solecism, and Harris gives it a fair amount of emphasis.
    11 more posts to bring over

  2. Default

    NT Textual Criticism - June 11, 2014
    The Barnabas thread
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/NTTe...9411276479209/


    Bruce Metzger agrees that Barnabas knew of 1 Timothy 3:16..

    ============


    The Canon of the New Testament: Its Origin, Development, and Significance (1997)
    Bruce Manning Metzger
    http://books.google.com/books?id=gkit-fH4z4YC&pg=RA2-PR5

    Again, the statement that according to Old Testament prophets it was ordained that the Lord was to 'be made manifest in the flesh' (v. 6) may echo the first line of what is often taken as an early creedal statement preserved in 1 Tim. iii. 16, 'He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the Spirit, etc.'

    ============


    Since Barnabas has about three quotes that are referenced in this context, and these have been used frequently as evidence for the specific text in his hand, my suggestion is to look at all the Barnabas allusions to 1 Timothy 3:16 as one unit. And this should be able to help us know if his text was "God" or "who" or "which". Perhaps not definitively, however we should be able to get to the allusion level.

    1 Timothy 3:16 (AV)
    And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
    God was manifest in the flesh,
    justified in the Spirit,
    seen of angels,
    preached unto the Gentiles,
    believed on in the world,
    received up into glory.

    However, at the moment I am a little rushed to put in details .
    Your thoughts welcome.
    Steven Avery
    The list of scholars who see an allusion to 1 Timothy 3:16 is long and multi-faceted. Virtually a "consensus" . They may differ on issues like hymn or variant, however the allusion is rather strong.

    13 more posts and some discussion with Tim Dooley and James Snapp.

  3. Default

    Other threads on NT Textual Criticism
    Later I will add other forums and material (some in new threads)

    Greek ms count - Aug 2014 - joined by Azim Mamanov Aug 2018
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/NTTe...0576195696050/

    1 Timothy 3:16 Greek mss count..
    Let's study to learn and, by the grace of the Lord Jesus, show ourselves approved (2 Tim 2:15) to helps us to always have an answer (1 Pet 3:15) about the purity of the scriptures declaring Jesus Jesus Christ.

    1 Timothy 3:16
    And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
    God was manifest in the flesh,
    justified in the Spirit,
    seen of angels,
    preached unto the Gentiles,
    believed on in the world,
    received up into glory.
    .
    The count varies especially because A and C have controversy. Actually F and G as well (see Burgon, Revision Revised, p. 438-443). While, for right now, we can let those pass, Burgon looks strong on F and G, awaiting any significant counterpoint.
    .
    Laparola
    http://www.laparola.net/greco/index....1=61&rif2=3:16
    .
    says for ὃς:
    .
    א* A* C* F G 33 365 442 1175 2127 (lectionaries l-60 l-599)
    .
    Clearly 256 and 1597 should be in their own place, as should 88 which was put with θεὸς. -- i.e (256 l597 ὃς θεὸς) (88 ὁ θεὸς) can only be placed on one side or another by mind-reading. Conceptually they can be marshalled to add to the corruption support simply because there are so few mss that have, in any form, ὃς or ὁ.
    .
    Allowing Sinaiticus to be an ancient ms and C to be read through the chemicals and omitting the ultra-dubious placement of A:
    .
    א* A* C* F G 33 365 442 1175 2127
    .
    the count is up to 9 ms supporting ὃς. Is there something like 250 in 1881 (better count anyone?) supporting θεὸς ? If so, the % is down to about 96%-97%.
    .
    Lectionaries having a separate count is probably the norm. Perhaps 30 to 2? 94%. Although Burgon seems to indicate 3.
    .
    Anyone want to tweak the Greek ms. count? Actual Greek ms counts are almost always kept hidden behind various tech-books by the critical text supporters. Hmmmm.
    .
    In some cases, like the Pericope Adultera and the Mark ending and here, it is good to pin down the numbers as much as possible. For precision, since some supporters of the corruption like to simply parrot "forgery" without having the faintest idea of the Greek ms count.
    .
    θεὸς
    Aleph-2 A2 C2 D2 K L P Ψ 075 0150 6 81 (88 ὁ θεὸς) 104 181 263 326 330 424 436 451 459 614 629 630 1241 1319 1573 1739 1852 1877 1881 1912 1962 1984 1985 2200 2492 2495 Byz Lec
    .
    If they have all the uncials (Laparola, by taking from multiple sources, usually avoids that UBS rigging) - omitting corrections, although when a correction took place is often unclear, and Alexandrinus, it is 6-4 for θεὸς.
    .
    The following cursives are independista, not with Byz

    6 81104 181 263 326 330 424 436 451 459 614 629 630 1241 1319 1573 1739 1852 1877 1881 1912 1962 1984 1985 2200 2492 2495
    .
    Why? Are these an acceptable Aland category because they often have Alexandrian readings? Inquiring minds.
    .
    Byz is 250+ ? Or is it much higher today?
    .
    =====================
    .
    Fine grammatical discussion on the BVDB forum, starting as an attack Avery censored thread, neat posts by Brian. Reporting on PureBible starting at:
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/pure...al_comments=54

  4. Default

    Facebook
    NT Textual Criticism
    Symmetry of variant transmission refutes common transcriptional probability argument
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/NTTe...5262549227415/

    Facebook
    NT Textual Criticism
    Ehrman does not mangle the translation
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/NTTextualCriticism/permalink/715358528551150/
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/NTTe...al_comments=11

    ========================

    Facebook
    New Testament Greek Club - major thread - closed group
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/354690344628879/permalink/608596899238221/

    ========================

    Off Facebook - WIP

    CARM
    b-greek
    docs prepared for linguist collaboration

    ========================




+ Reply to Thread

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may post attachments
  • You may edit your posts
  •