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Thread: Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12

  1. Default Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12

    CARM
    https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/theology/general-christian-topics/biblical-languages/4695917-trinitarian-latin-mass/page4
    https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/theology/general-christian-topics/biblical-languages/4695917-trinitarian-latin-mass?p=4975387#post4975387
    CARM - 2018
    https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/th...55#post5226455


    Isaiah 14:12-15
    How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer,
    son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground,
    which didst weaken the nations!

    For thou hast said in thine heart,
    I will ascend into heaven,
    I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:
    I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

    I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
    I will be like the most High.

    Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
    Luke 10:17-18
    And the seventy returned again with joy, saying,
    Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
    And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

    Revelation 22:16
    I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.
    I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.


    =======================

    The Devil Is in the Details: The Subtlety of Satan in the Complexity of Life (2010)
    https://www.amazon.com/Devil-Details.../dp/1615071520
    https://voice.dts.edu/review/tony-ke...n-the-details/

    You should be able to see p. 15-19, to start, from Chapter 2, in Amazon.


    =======================

    Tony Kessinger, reviewed by DTS, is, as I mentioned, generally superb, Basically a must read.

    Sigve K. Tonstad
    also recognizes that even looking at just the original Hebrew "the original Hebrew may imply a name." And Jerome really was in the loop living in Bethlehem and studying at the Caesarea library and working with the Jews for language knowledge.

    As for Jerome, I suggest you find and read his quotes, rather than take Gesenius or the Hermeneutics Stack Exchange ultra-sparse analysis. (Granted, Stack Exchange, Redddit and Quora can sources of that nature can sometimes really be helpful.) They were online from me a while back but got purged so I would have to reinvigorate the list. (Now I generally mirror.)

    In Isaiah 14:12 did the King James translator make a mistake using the term Lucifer to describe morning star?
    https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/20952/in-isaiah-1412-did-the-king-james-translator-make-a-mistake-using-the-term-luci/20959#20959?newreg=c04af4339ed74daca792a0b4c201617 5

  2. Default Lucifer - ECW - Origen and Treatise on Rebaptism

    Why is Isaiah 14:12-15 interpreted by some to refer to Satan?
    https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/8066/why-is-isaiah-1412-15-interpreted-by-some-to-refer-to-satan/8071

    Origen
    appears to be the prime candidate to connect explicity Isaiah 14:12 and Luke 10:18. First, from De principiis (On First Principles), Bk. I.v.5 (brief citation: see link for whole passage):

    Most evidently by these words is he shown to have fallen from heaven, who formerly was Lucifer, and who used to arise in the morning. For if, as some think, he was a nature of darkness, how is Lucifer said to have existed before? Or how could he arise in the morning, who had in himself nothing of the light? Nay, even the Saviour Himself teaches us, saying of the devil, “Behold, I see Satan fallen from heaven like lightning.”

    This is the direct link (the smoking gun?) that joins together the two passages. The other, less explicit, passage also comes from De principiis, Bk. IV.i.22 (again, brief citation), and only offers support for the basis on which Origen could make the exegetical move:

    And what is said in many places, and especially in Isaiah, of Nebuchadnezzar, cannot be explained of that individual. For the man Nebuchadnezzar neither fell from heaven, nor was he the morning star, nor did he arise upon the earth in the morning.


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    And finally, the third "intriguing" suggestion is an editorial note in an anonymous work (sometimes connected with Cyprian, contemporary with Origen), "Treatise on Re-baptism", in which the ancient author briefly discusses the "Get behind me..." (Matthew 16:23) passage. The editor comments:

    Isa. xiv. 12. The sin of Lucifer had, very possibly, been this of rebelling against the Incarnation and the introduction thereby of an order of beings higher than himself. Hence our Lord recognised in Peter’s words the voice of the old adversary, and called him “Satan.”..
    .

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  3. Default

    CARM 2018 continues - plan more ECW quotes.

    For Tertullian, check out the discussion and references in Karlo V. Bordjadze - Darkness Visible: A Study of Isaiah 14:3-23 as Christian Scripture - p. 135-136 and especially the two refs in p. 136.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=RSA6DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA136

    Jerome has a number of good references, I am checking if they are available in one spot.

    And I think there are others that pre-date the Vulgate.of Jerome.

    ============================

    Tertullian on Ezekiel 28 is akin to Origen on Isaiah 14.

    If, however, you choose to transfer the account of evil from man to the devil as the instigator of sin, and in this way, too, throw the blame on the Creator, inasmuch as He created the devil — for He makes those spiritual beings, the angels— then it will follow that what was made, that is to say, the angel, will belong to Him who made it; while that which was not made by God, even the devil, or accuser, cannot but have been made by itself; and this by false detraction from God: first, how that God had forbidden them to eat of every tree; then, with the pretence that they should not die if they ate; thirdly, as if God grudged them the property of divinity. Now, whence originated this malice of lying and deceit towards man, and slandering of God? Most certainly not from God, who made the angel good after the fashion of His good works. Indeed, before he became the devil, he stands forth the wisest of creatures; and wisdom is no evil. If you turn to the prophecy of Ezekiel, you will at once perceive that this angel was both by creation good and by choice corrupt. For in the person of the prince of Tyre it is said in reference to the devil:

    Moreover, the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus says the Lord God: You seal up the sum, full of wisdom, perfect in beauty (this belongs to him as the highest of the angels, the archangel, the wisest of all); amidst the delights of the paradise of your God were you born (for it was there, where God had made the angels in a shape which resembled the figure of animals).

    Every precious stone was your covering, the sardius, the topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle; and with gold have you filled your barns and your treasuries. From the day when you were created, when I set you, a cherub, upon the holy mountain of God, you were in the midst of stones of fire, you were irreproachable in your days, from the day of your creation, until your iniquities were discovered. By the abundance of your merchandise you have filled your storehouses, and you have sinned, etc.[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]

    [/COLOR]This description, it is manifest, properly belongs to the transgression of the angel, and not to the prince's: for none among human beings was either born in the paradise of God, not even Adam himself, who was rather translated there; nor placed with a cherub upon God's holy mountain, that is to say, in the heights of heaven, from which the Lord testifies that Satan fell; nor detained among the stones of fire, and the flashing rays of burning constellations, whence Satan was cast down like lightning. Luke 10:18 No, it is none else than the very author of sin who was denoted in the person of a sinful man: he was once irreproachable, at the time of his creation, formed for good by God, as by the good Creator of irreproachable creatures, and adorned with every angelic glory, and associated with God, good with the Good; but afterwards of his own accord removed to evil. From the day when your iniquities, says he, were discovered, — attributing to him those injuries wherewith he injured man when he was expelled from his allegiance to God — even from that time did he sin, when he propagated his sin, and thereby plied the abundance of his merchandise, that is, of his Wickedness, even the tale of his transgressions, because he was himself as a spirit no less (than man) created, with the faculty of free-will. For God would in nothing fail to endow a being who was to be next to Himself with a liberty of this kind. Nevertheless, by precondemning him, God testified that he had departed from the condition of his created nature, through his own lusting after the wickedness which was spontaneously conceived within him; and at the same time, by conceding a permission for the operation of his designs, He acted consistently with the purpose of His own goodness, deferring the devil's destruction for the self-same reason as He postponed the restitution of man. For He afforded room for a conflict, wherein man might crush his enemy with the same freedom of his will as had made him succumb to him (proving that the fault was all his own, not God's), and so worthily recover his salvation by a victory; wherein also the devil might receive a more bitter punishment, through being vanquished by him whom he had previously injured; and wherein God might be discovered to be so much the more good, as waiting for man to return from his present life to a more glorious paradise, with a right to pluck of the tree of life.

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