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Thread: Romans 3 Pauline wonderful scripture pastiche - interpolation into Psalm 14 (13 in LXX) of the "LXX" socalled

  1. Default Romans 3 Pauline wonderful scripture pastiche - interpolation into Psalm 14 (13 in LXX) of the "LXX" socalled

    This can be a spot to keep the information, which is scattered on the net.

    Quotes like those of Jerome, Delitzsch, Moo, Kraft and Sanday-Headlam planned for the next post.

    Then some of the discussions, including how this is not even mentioned in major works that purport
    to talk about OT/NT relationships:

    ==================

    [textualcriticism] The LXX and Psalm 14
    Steven - Aug, 2009
    https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...ns/topics/5084

    [KJBD] LXX - Psalms 14 -'smoothing' to Romans 3
    Steven - Jan, 2007
    https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...ns/topics/2787

    Puritanboard
    Psalm 14:3 in LXX
    https://www.puritanboard.com/threads...-in-lxx.15502/
    Steve Rafalsky post!

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    Last edited by Steven Avery; Yesterday at 05:55 AM.

  2. Default florilegium and pastiche

    "In medieval Latin a florilegium (plural florilegia) was a compilation of excerpts from other writings. The word is from the Latin flos (flower) and legere (to gather)."
    florilegium would be the scholars word rather than pastiche. Might be helpful in a post.

    Apostolic Friends Forum
    I see this as a direct assault on the KJV
    http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...=51379&page=25

    Full presentation needed. Will try to find an hour or two.

    Steven
    Last edited by Steven Avery; Yesterday at 05:54 AM.

  3. Default Paul F. Herring and Frank Selch

    One reference to the Frank Selch paper.

    The New Testament:
    The Hebrew Behind The Greek
    The Language and Mindset of God: Hebraic or Hellenistic? (2016)
    Paul F. Herring
    https://religiondocbox.com/Judaism/8...the-greek.html


    There are many examples where there is strong evidence that the LXX has been altered over the last 2000 years to conform to popular translations of the NT. One such glaring example is Romans 3: This passage has a great many problems as outlined in some depth in an article by Frank Selch, The Enigma of Romans Frank is able to show quite conclusively that the verses of Romans 3:13-18 were written back into the LXX in the early Christian centuries. Thus we are confronted with the very challenging discovery that: The Septuagint has been seriously tainted even to the point of redaction 25 so as to agree with many NT miss-translations (i.e. translations that agreed with neither the Hebrew versions of the Tanakh or the earlier versions of the LXX).

    What follows is an attempt to expand upon this argument and provide convincing evidence of its veracity, as well as analysing the impact of this apparently deliberate distortion and mis-appropriation of Scripture. Once established, it is then important to see what doctrinal beliefs have been introduced and supported by this faulty understanding and application, as well as what alternative articles of faith should instead be acknowledged and promoted. These questions and issues I would argue are very serious and foundational to both our individual and corporate lives, and to the momentous events of the approaching last days re-editing, i.e. changed by the transcribers or translators - Page 19
    =========================

    A blog from the same author (add colour to quotes):


    'There Are None Righteous' -The Apostle Paul? - (May, 2015)
    Error Alert - Context Needed
    Paul F. Herring
    https://luke443.blogspot.com/2015/05...stle-paul.html

    You might also find though some like the famous Adam Clarke (1762–1832)[2] indicating that Romans 3:13-18 is in fact a direct quote of Ps 14 in the Septuagint: “This and all the following verses to the end of the 18th Romans 3:13-18 are found in the Septuagint, but not in the Hebrew text; and it is most evident that it was from this version that the apostle quoted, as the verses cannot be found in any other place with so near an approximation to the apostle's meaning and words.”

    Note that Adam Clarke states ‘with so near an approximation’, yet the Greek versions are not just close they are identical!

    Quoting Frank Selch (The Enigma of Romans 3:10-18):

    “The LXX came into being approx. 200 plus years before the Christian era. Is it at all feasible that Psalm 13 [Masoretic Psalm14] contained that inclusion which is there today? In all likelihood no, since the verses are a collection from other Psalms and wisdom writings and need not be there.

    The following segment from Romans 3:13-18 is from the NKJV:

    ‘Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness; their feet are swift to shed blood: destruction and misery are in their ways; and the way of peace they have not known: there is no fear of God before their eyes.’

    And this one is a copy of Psalm 14:3 [Ps.13 in the Greek text] from the ‘English Translation of the Greek Septuagint Bible, The Translation of the Greek Old Testament Scriptures, Including the Apocrypha’; as compiled from the Translation by Sir Lancelot C. L. Brenton 1851

    ‘Their throat is an open tomb; with their tongues they have practiced deceit the poison of asps is under their lips whose  mouth is full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; Destruction and misery are in their ways; and the way of peace they have not known there is no fear of God before their eyes.’

    Here is the Greek text of Romans 3:13-18
    τάφος νε γμένος ὁ λάρυγξ α τῶν, ταῖς γλώσσαις α τῶν ἐδολιοῦσαν, ἰὸς σπίδων ὑπὸ τὰ χείλη α τῶν·ὧν τὸ στόμα ρᾶς καὶ πικρίας γέμει, ὀξεῖς οἱ πόδες α τῶν ἐκχέαι αἷμα, σύντριμμα καὶ αλαιπωρία ἐν ταῖς ὁδοῖς α τῶν, καὶ ὁδὸν εἰρήνης ο κ ἔγνωσαν ο κ ἔστιν φόβος θεοῦ πέναντι τῶν ὀφθαλμῶν α τῶν.

    And here is the text of Psalm 14:3b [13] form the LXX
    ‘…τάφος νε γμένος ὁ λάρυγξ α τῶν ταῖς γλώςαις α τῶν ἐδολιοῦσαν ἰὸς σπίδων ὑπὸ τὰ χείλη α τῶν ὧν τὸ στόμα ρᾶς καὶ πικρίας γέμει ὀξεῖς οἱ πόδες α τῶν ἐκχέαι αἷμα σύντριμμα καὶ ταλαιπωρία ἐν ταῖς ὁδοῖς α τῶν καὶ ὁδὸν εἰρήνης ο κ ἔγνωσαν ο κ ἔστιν φόβος θεοῦ πέναντι τῶν ὀφθαλμῶν α τῶν.

    The two portions are identical!”

    So, is this a slam dunk proof that the LXX was indeed used after all (as most Christian scholars have indeed argued for a great many years)?

    NO!

    Because even Adam Clarke went on to state: The verses in question, however, are not found in the Alexandrian MS. But they exist in the Vulgate, the AEthiopic, and the Arabic. As the most ancient copies of the Septuagint do not contain these verses, some contend that the apostle has quoted them from different parts of Scripture; and later transcribers of the Septuagint, finding that the 10th, 11th, and 12th, verses were quoted from the xivth Psalm, Ps 14:10-12 imagined that the rest were found originally there too, and so incorporated them in their copies, from the apostle's text.”[3],[4]

    Pause and consider carefully!

    Adam Clarke acknowledges (and this was over 150 years ago!) that the earliest versions of the LXX (first compiled in Alexandria), do not contain this portion that is so perfectly quoted in Romans 3! That is, the Romans 3 quote we have today has been added by the translators at some stage. It is not a translation of the original; it is not inspired by any stretch of the imagination, but instead a great forgery (however well intentioned the editors may have been in their redaction)!

    Have others noted this before?

    Yes, Douglas Moo's opinion (from his NICNT commentary, ‘The Epistle To the Romans’, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1996) writes: “The inclusion of Romans 3:13-18 in several MSS of the LXX of Psalm 14 is a striking example of the influence of Christian scribes on the transmission of the LXX. (See S-H for a thorough discussion). (p. 203, fn. 28) [S-H refers to A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans, by William Sanday and Arthur C. Headlam (ICC. Edinburgh: T & T Clark, 1902)]”


    Douglas Moo is stating that the Septuagint's rendering in Psalm 14:3 is a direct insertion copied back from Romans 3:13-18 by Christian editors and translators.

    Clearly something very deliberate and most questionable is evident here. Further, very few, if any Hebrew manuscripts have this version of Ps 14. The Dead Sea Scrolls portion 11QPs(c) contains Ps. 14:1-6 in Hebrew. Below is a translation in English of this Psalm:

    Psalm 14:
    1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God”. They are corrupt, they commit vile wickedness; there is no one who does good.
    2 YHWH looks down from heaven upon humankind to see if there are any who are wise, any who seek after God.
    3 They have all gone astray; they are all alike corrupt; there is no one who does good – no, not even one.
    4 Do they never learn, all those evildoers who devour my people as humans eat bread, and who do not call upon the YHWH?
    5 Toward this place they will be in mighty dread, for God is with the company of the righteous.
    6 You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor, but YHWH is their refuge.
    - See p 515 ‘The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible’ Martin Abegg Jr, Peter Flint & Eugene Ulrich 1999

    Given the existence of this Hebrew version of Ps 14 at the time that the Apostle Paul first wrote Romans, and given the evidence I have referred to that indicates that Hebrew was both the main spoken language in Israel during the Second Temple period[5], and the language in which the Jewish scribes and the Jewish authors of the NT wrote; then this is much more likely the version that Paul would have quoted.

    So, we might ask again at this point, why was this deliberate change made to the Septuagint and the NT, and what are the implications and ramifications of this deliberate tampering with versions of the LXX and it would appear by inference, the NT?

    I will address this in the last section of this book, but to put it bluntly, it all comes back to Doctrine, to the deliberate attempt to write into the NT, the doctrines of men, rather than accept the doctrines and teachings (Torah) of the Almighty and His Messiah!

    This is an excerpt from my book 'The New Testament: The Hebrew Behind the Greek' - on amazon athttp://www.amazon.com/The-New-Testam...dp/B009XO0NQU/

  4. Default Daniel Sapp on Isaiah 53 - Romans and Psalm connection missing in Jobe/Silva

    From the NT Textual Criticism forum (bring over the other posts too)
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/NTTe...l_comments=118

    James, I noticed something in her lauding the GOT on Isaiah 53. (p. 28-29). Daniel Sapp wrote an excellent paper on this question:

    "Jesus and the Suffering Servant: Isaiah 53 and Christian Origins"
    The LXX, 1Q1sa, and MT Versions of Isaiah 53 and the Christian Doctrine of Atonement
    by David A. Sapp

    Some details here:

    [Messianic_Apologetic] Isaiah 53, comparison of MT, LXX, and DSS
    Steven Avery - May 22, 2002
    https://groups.yahoo.com/.../conversations/topics/1668

    This I believe is an important paper, showing that the GOT is inferior to the DSS/MT Isaiah in terms of atonement and the sufffering servant. Quite different than what she writes in the paper above. At the very least, the Daniel Sapp article not being referenced in her paper is a major miss.

    =======================

    In general Karen Jobe starts with the type of presumption that avoids thinking about the type of issues from Psalm 14 coming from Romans 3. So you do you have to be careful with the writing, as often happens with "LXX" scholars.

    And I was actually rather shocked to see the major Silva/Jobe book not even mentioning the multi-verse interpolation of the NT into the "LXX". There seems to be a blindness involved, an elephant in the living room.

    ========================

    The Isaiah 7:14 and "reigned from the tree" sections are not very substantive. There is a lot fuller and more accurate information available. See Daniel Gruber and William Most on Isaiah, to start. The "tree" section is de minimis.

    There are some good tidbits in the paper. The part about Jerome's view of the GOT is short, but clear.

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