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Thread: Florentine Council, Vaticanus and Latinization - Erasmus, Brugensis and more

  1. Default Florentine Council, Vaticanus and Latinization - Erasmus, Brugensis and more

    testing

    Will an edit work.
    We shall see:


    The thought of collating this material came from this Facebook discussion on ConfessionalBibliology

    Robert Truelove quotes John Owen
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/Conf...9724698913785/

    "Arise out of copies apparently corrupted, like that of Beza in Luke and that in the Vatican boasted of by Huntley the Jesuit, which Lucas Brugensis affirms to have been changed by the Vulgar Latin, and which was written and corrected, as Erasmus says, about the [time of the] council of Florence, when an agreement was patched up between the Greeks and Latins."
    ==================

    Earlier textualcritcism forum discussions:
    Here I was working with the John Owen quote given by Robert Truelove:

    [TC-Alternate-list] Vaticanus history - Erasmus, Huntley, Brugensis, Walton, Owen
    Steven Avery - Oct 11, 2008
    https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/.../messages/2169

    ... First Huntly. Finding the Huntly material might be difficult, although it truly would be interesting to see how the Jesuits boasted of the MS in the 1500s. Apparently this is James Huntley Gordon ...

    Cyclopaedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature by John McClintock,
    http://books.google.com/books?id=ZGY9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA927
    James Huntley, an eminent Scotch Jesuit, was born in 1543. Ho was educated at Rome, and entered the order of Jesuits Sept. 20, 1563. For nearly fifty years he taught Hebrew and theology at Rome, Paris, and Bordeaux. He travelled also, as missionary, through England and Scotland, where his zeal for making converts to the Roman Catholic Church caused him to be twice put in prison. He died at Paris, April 16, 1620. Gordon was a learned and skillful man, and very zealous for his order. He wrote Controversiarurn christianae fidei Epitome, 3 parts (i, Limoges, 1612 ; ii, Paris ; ill, reprinted with the two others, Cologne, 1020, 8vo). See Alcgambe, Bibliotheca Scriptorum Societatia Jesu ; Hoefer, Nouv Biog. Generale, xxi, 280.

    Owen separately points out that Huntly supports the Vulgate Latin OT over the Hebrew Bible.

    Another interesting question is how Brugensis "affirms (Vaticanus) to have been changed by the Vulgar Latin". Likely this would mean the later correctors. Brugensis, like Huntly, might use Vaticanus as a support for the Vulgate readings against the Majority Greek since Brugensis was interested in revising the Clementine Vulgate. And thus he would bypass the many cases where the Vaticanus has its own readings against the Vulgate and the Greek Majority text. It took a whole new radical overhaul of textual theory, led by Hort over a group of Revisors, when he wasn't going to a seance, to allow for those independentista readings to have any assumed authority. (An interesting note leading up to that coup was the Tischendorf King James Bible edition showing Alexandrinus, Vaticanus and Sinaiticus variants, where they weren't too much in the realm of obvious blunders.)

    The third part from Owen is about Erasmus, who Owen says about Vaticanus - "written and corrected ... about the council of Florence, when an agreement was patched up between the Greeks and Latins".

    Is this correct ("written") about Erasmus. How could that be with an uncial ? Or is Owen misreading Erasmus ? The Council of Florence is mentioned prominently in the article by Sightler.
    [textualcriticism] "The KJV translators had access to Codex Vaticanus and rejected it."
    K. Martin Heide - June 9, 2007
    https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...ns/topics/3214

    Erasmus believed, by mistake, in addition - and that may have been the reason why he was very reluctant to inspect the Vaticanus-readings more closely - that the Codex Vaticanus was tampered with after the Council of Florence, 1435. Sepulveda argued that this is totally wrong; Erasmus, in turn, agreed in so far, that he knew of this idea only second-hand, but nevertheless that did not convince him of the Codex Vaticanus ... so, nothing was changed.
    [textualcriticism] Franciscus Lucas Brugensis and Vaticanus
    Philip Maertens - Algarve, Portugal - Nov, 4, 2012
    https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/.../messages/7580
    Philip Maertens - Nov, 2012
    https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...ns/topics/7585

    There exist another digital copy at http://digibug.ugr.es/handle/10481/10067?mode=fullBoth copies have their imperfections.
    The copy on the Spanish site lacks pages 320-321 while pages 314-315 are duplicated. Also interesting to note that page 204 reads 205.
    The copy on the German site, if it doesn't lack pages, has a lot more duplicated: p. 72-79; p. 282-293; p. 408-429.
    The Spanish copy occupies less space on disk but the German one is easier to read.
    The German site is mentioned elsewhere, this should be the one:

    Notationes in sacra Biblia : quibus, variantia discrepantibus exemplaribus loca, summo studio discutiuntur
    http://reader.digitale-sammlungen.de...740_00001.html

    ===================

    The helpful expert on Lucas Brugensis is Philip Maertens:

    Philip Maertens
    https://independent.academia.edu/PhilipMaertens/Papers

    Franciscus Lucas Brugensis et le texte de l'Ancien Testament (première partie)

    Franciscus Lucas Brugensis et le texte de l'Ancien Testament (deuxième partie)

    Franciscus Lucas Brugensis et le Codex Vaticanus
    https://www.academia.edu/2086500/Fra...odex_Vaticanus


    ===================

    EARLIER DISCUSSIONS

    Johann Melchior Goeze (1717-1786)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Melchior_Goeze

    Fortsetzung der ausführlicheren Vertheidigung (1768)
    Goeze
    http://books.google.com/books?id=EyQUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA56
    (p. 56-58 is referenced in Michaelis, it may have the 365 readings)

    ===================

    Johann David Michaelis (1717-1791)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._D._Michaelis

    This comes up in Michaelis, here are examples:

    Introduction to the New Testament, Vol 2 Part 1, 4th ed - (1793 German) (translated English 1823)
    Johann David Michaelis
    http://books.google.com/books?id=Kis-AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA170

    Sepulveda and response to Foedus cum Graecis, Goeze reference.

    Introduction to the New Testament, Volume 2, Part 2 (German written c. 1780 .. Eng edition 1802)
    Johann David Michaelis
    https://books.google.com/books?id=52suAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA657

    27- The possibility that Greek manufcripts in Alexandria were altered from the Latin no one can deny. Even as early as the time of Origen single alterations might have taken place, for the learned father in a passaage quoted by Wetstein in his note to Matth. viii. 28. ....p. 659
    Michaelis and Codex Laudianus summarized, along with other scholarship:

    The Sacraments: An Inquiry Into the Nature of the Symbolic Institutions of the Christian Religion, Usually Called the Sacraments (1844)
    Robert Halley
    https://books.google.com/books?id=1r0PAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA605




    Last edited by Steven Avery; 08-24-2017 at 12:27 PM.

  2. Default

    The thought of collating this material came from this Facebook discussion on ConfessionalBibliology

    John Owen's treatise "Integrity and Purity of the Hebrew and Greek Text" he gives a list of principles for performing textual criticism. His 9th point is to reject readings that...
    "Arise out of copies apparently corrupted, like that of Beza in Luke and that in the Vatican boasted of by Huntley the Jesuit, which Lucas Brugensis affirms to have been changed by the Vulgar Latin, and which was written and corrected, as Erasmus says, about the [time of the] council of Florence, when an agreement was patched up between the Greeks and Latins."
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/ConfessionalBibliology/permalink/1779724698913785/

    ==================

    Earlier textualcritcism forum discussions:
    Here I was working with the John Owen quote given by Robert Truelove:

    [TC-Alternate-list] Vaticanus history - Erasmus, Huntley, Brugensis, Walton, Owen
    Steven Avery - Oct 11, 2008
    https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/TC-Alternate-list/conversations/messages/2169


    [textualcriticism] "The KJV translators had access to Codex Vaticanus and rejected it."
    K. Martin Heide - June 9, 2007
    https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/textualcriticism/conversations/topics/3214

    [textualcriticism] Franciscus Lucas Brugensis and Vaticanus
    Philip Maertens - Algarve, Portugal - Nov, 4, 2012
    https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/textualcriticism/conversations/messages/7580
    Philip Maertens - Nov, 2012
    https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/textualcriticism/conversations/topics/7585

    The German site is mentioned elsewhere, this should be the one:

    Notationes in sacra Biblia : quibus, variantia discrepantibus exemplaribus loca, summo studio discutiuntur
    http://reader.digitale-sammlungen.de/de/fs1/object/display/bsb10984740_00001.html

    ===================

    The helpful expert on Lucas Brugensis is Philip Maertens:


    Philip Maertens
    https://independent.academia.edu/PhilipMaertens/Papers

    Franciscus Lucas Brugensis et le texte de l'Ancien Testament (première partie)

    Franciscus Lucas Brugensis et le texte de l'Ancien Testament (deuxième partie)

    Franciscus Lucas Brugensis et le Codex Vaticanus
    https://www.academia.edu/2086500/Fra...odex_Vaticanus


    ===================

    EARLIER DISCUSSIONS

    Johann Melchior Goeze (1717-1786)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Melchior_Goeze

    Fortsetzung der ausführlicheren Vertheidigung (1768)
    Goeze
    http://books.google.com/books?id=EyQUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA56
    (p. 56-58 is referenced in Michaelis, it may have the 365 readings)

    ===================

    Johann David Michaelis (1717-1791)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._D._Michaelis

    This comes up in Michaelis, here are examples:

    Introduction to the New Testament, Vol 2 Part 1, 4th ed - (1793 German) (translated English 1823)
    Johann David Michaelis
    http://books.google.com/books?id=Kis-AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA170

    Sepulveda and response to Foedus cum Graecis, Goeze reference.

    Introduction to the New Testament, Volume 2, Part 2 (German written c. 1780 .. Eng edition 1802)
    Johann David Michaelis
    https://books.google.com/books?id=52suAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA657

    Michaelis and Codex Laudianus summarized, along with other scholarship:

    The Sacraments: An Inquiry Into the Nature of the Symbolic Institutions of the Christian Religion, Usually Called the Sacraments (1844)
    Robert Halley
    https://books.google.com/books?id=1r0PAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA605


    Horne says ... "..This manuscript is of great value: Michaelis pronounces it to be indispensable to every one who would examine the important question, whether the Codices Graeco-Latini have been corrupted from the Latin; and adds, that it was this manuscript which convinced him that this charge was without foundation." On the other hand, Wetstein says ... Griesbach .. Michaelis ... Woide
    ===================

    Wetstein info, has my quote on Latinization from way back
    http://textualcriticism.scienceontheweb.net/AE/Wetstein3.html

    Porter
    "...The remarkable thing about Wetstein, is that after 21 years of carefully collating and studying manuscripts, he reversed his position on the newly forming text-critical canon, which was gaining popularity among German critics and Protestant ideologues ..."
    denouncing some of the most ancient and valuable MSS. as altered and corrupted from the Latin Version, and as possessing no higher authority, and lending no farther sanction to those readings in which they agree with the Latin, than the Latin would have conferred without their assistance
    [TC-Alternate-list] Wetstein switches to Byz. text-type
    Steven Avery - Sept 1, 2008
    https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/TC-Alternate-list/conversations/topics/3473

    ===================

    Additional references planned here are from Richard Laurence, Tregelles, Hort and Henk de Jonge.

    Remember, too that there are various doubts as to whether Vaticanus is really a fourth century ms and whether with its washing and overwriting and other issues it is unchanged from .. whenever it was first written. The Latinization issue thus does not exist in a vacuum.

    The textual critics like K. Martin Heide would find it hard to reconsider the fourth century date (look at the resistances on Sinaiticus, where the late production is clear-cut.). This is true even though writings from men like Michaelis and Bernard Janin Sage will point out that the terminus post quem is often a bit dicey to declare, as any good calligraphist can emulate an earlier writing style.

    ==============

  3. Default Philip Maertens

    Conversation with Phiip Maertens, of Algarve, Portugal, a fine scholar. Mildly shortened:

    Aug 24, to Sept 7, 2017.

    Non-controversial, simply scholarly inquiry, so there should be no problem sharing the information.

    =================

    2017 discussion about the John Owen quote on Codex Vaticanus, referencing Brugensis and Huntley and latinization


    Steven Avery:
    Hi Philip, You have a lot of fine material about Lucas Brugensis and Vaticanus.
    Can you help check the accuracy of this quotation from John Owen?

    "... copies apparently corrupted, like that of Beza in Luke and that in the Vatican boasted of by Huntley the Jesuit, which Lucas Brugensis affirms to have been changed by the Vulgar Latin, and which was written and corrected, as Erasmus says, about the [time of the] council of Florence, when an agreement was patched up between the Greeks and Latins."

    The quote is from John Owen (1616-1683) quite an important scholar of the era, and careful on his facts. The part that is especially interesting is Huntley (James Huntley-Gordon) and Brugensis, who are writing after Erasmus.

    Owen wrote that in:

    Of the Integrity and Purity of the Hebrew & Greek Texts of Scripture
    Volume 16 in The Works of John Owen
    https://books.google.com/books?id=nSVKAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA366 (1853 edition)

    The original 1659 title was:

    Of the divine originall, authority, self-evidencing light, and povver of the Scriptures. With an answer to that enquiry, how we know the Scriptures to be the Word of God. Also a vindication of the purity and integrity of the Hebrew and Greek texts of the Old and New Testament; in some considerations on the prolegomena, & appendix to the late Biblia polyglotta. Whereunto are subjoyned some exercitations about the nature and perfection of the Scripture, the right of interpretation, internall Light, revelation, &c.

    Which is up at EEBO:
    https://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?cc=eebo;c=eebo;idno=a90280.0001.001;node=A9028 0.0001.001%3A5.3;seq=233;submit=Go;type=simple;vid =170488;q1=Brugensis;page=root;view=text

    The references said to be from Brugensis and James Gordon of Huntley (Huntly) are fascinating. Any help on either would be appreciated.

    Since Brugensis is an area where your scholarship is world-top, that is really the one that I am asking you. However, I will include a bit from Huntley.

    =====================================

    Here is one book from Huntley that is online.

    Controversiarum christianae fidei adversus hujus temporis haereticos epitome, Volume 1
    https://books.google.com/books?id=opC8c9wbXw8C&pg=PA1

    And a bio:
    https://books.google.com/books?id=haFDAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA70

    Based on the bio, everything might be in that so-called "Volume 1".

    Although then you have this:

    Opus chronologicum annorum seriem,
    https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_hqFKhDUkkaYC

    James Gordon, a Jesuit, but without the "Huntley".

    It is a little surprising to me that Owen calls him "Huntley" but it does seem to be the right fella. His name is given differently by different writers.
    Philip Maertens:
    Ok, I just had a look at the 80 something instances in which Lucas Brugensis mentions Vatican manuscripts in his "Notationes in Sacra Biblia". As you surely know, Lucas Brugensis didn't have first-hand knowledge of Codex Vaticanus. In none of the instances does he clearly affirm the Codex Vaticanus "to have been changed by the Vulgar Latin". He does note, however, similarities in readings when they occur. Interestingly, he does not have textual commentaries for Matt. xvii. 2, Mark i.38 or vii.4. I checked his Commentaries and his "Romanae Correctionis" but no mention of Codex Vaticanus. So it would seem that Owen overstates his case. Maybe he relies on Huntley? BTW, you shouldn't be surprised about Huntley. According to his dedication in the "Controversiarum christianae fidei", his full name in Latin form was Iacobus Gordonus Huntlaeus.
    Steven Avery:
    Thanks for the fine info! I see in your paper that Lucas Brugensis went off of information from about four other people. It would be nice if your material has translation to English. For now we will conjecture Owen overstating, and start a little Huntley search.

    (Note: apparently there is no Wikipedia page for FLB, a surprise.)

    Here is a bit more on general inquiry .

    Do you know what references are made to the Mark ending in that era by the scholars who saw Vaticanus? I'm actually interested in any references before Birch c. 1790, any refs around FLB are fascinating. Sepulveda gave Erasmus various readings, however I do not think we have any hard evidence as to which ones.

    As for Vaticanus, there are various curiosities, since it only has provenance from about 1475. There is the Latinization and Florence back-and-forth with Erasmus and Sepulveda. And it has the overwriting that has been given wildly different dates, and some other curiosities worth researching. While I am showing some of the conspiracy myths to be false (a book recently claimed the Mark ending was changed in the 1800s!), I am working on understanding the curious history.
    For the papers by Philip Maertens on Bruegensis, see the first post above.

    Facebook 2018 PureBible discussion with Bryan Ross, inquiring into the John Owen quote:
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/pure...7201636705053/

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