Results 1 to 3 of 3

Thread: New Testament internal references to the New Testament as scripture

  1. Default New Testament internal references to the New Testament as scripture

    Facebook
    40s AD dating for first Gospel accounts - contra 60s-80s dating
    (Paul quotes Luke as scripture)
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/pure...3192653772625/

    2 Peter 3:16
    As also in all his epistles,
    speaking in them of these things;
    in which are some things hard to be understood,
    which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest,
    as they do also the other scriptures,
    unto their own destruction.
    1 Timothy 5:18
    For the scripture saith,
    Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn.
    And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

    Deuteronomy 25:4
    Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.

    Luke 10:7
    And in the same house remain,
    eating and drinking such things as they give:
    for the labourer is worthy of his hire.
    Go not from house to house.

    Matthew 10:10
    Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats,
    neither shoes, nor yet staves:
    for the workman is worthy of his meat.
    James 2:8
    If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture,
    Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself,
    ye do well:

    Matthew 22:39
    And the second is like unto it,
    Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    1 Corinthians 9:9
    For it is written in the law of Moses,
    Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn.
    Doth God take care for oxen?
    An Introduction to the Critical Study and Knowledge of the Holy Scriptures, Volume 1 (1846)
    On the Genuineness and Authenticity of the New Testament
    Thomas Horne
    https://books.google.com/books?id=SLg7AAAAcAAJ&pg=PA82


    Dale M. Wheeler, Th.D.
    http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/test-a...-02/17016.html


  2. Default 'my gospel'

    apostolic understandings of NT scripture ! (40-65AD) - (2010, link no longer sound)
    big two - 1 Timothy 5:18 2 Peter 3:16
    similar - check wording - James 2:8
    my gospel - Romans 2:16 Romans 16:25 2 Timothy 2:8 1 Corinthians 15:1

    Galatians 3:22
    But the scripture hath concluded all under sin,
    that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

    James 4:5
    Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain,
    The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

    MY GOSPEL - see other page

    "my gospel" - Paul writing of Luke's gospel
    http://www.purebibleforum.com/showth...-Luke-s-gospel


    Romans 2:16
    In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


    Romans 16:25
    Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel,
    and the preaching of Jesus Christ,
    according to the revelation of the mystery,
    which was kept secret since the world began,

    2 Timothy 2:8
    Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

    1 Corinthians 15:1
    Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you,
    which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;



  3. Default Facebook thread covers a number of issues

    Facebook thread
    40s AD dating for first Gospel accounts - contra 60s-80s dating
    (Paul quotes Luke as scripture)
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/pure...3192653772625/


    Facebook
    40s AD dating for first Gospel accounts - contra 60s-80s dating
    (Paul quotes Luke as scripture)

    This thread can look at the dating of the New Testament. Often false Bible text (and interpretation and forgery) theories rely on the bogus late dating popular in scholarship circles.

    (Mark ending discussion, where false theory uses late dates)
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/purebible/permalink/860452200713337/?comment_id=862170387208185&offset=0&total_comment s=34&comment_tracking={%22tn%22%3A%22R4%22}

    1 Timothy 5:18
    For the scripture saith,
    Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn.
    And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

    Deuteronomy 25:4
    Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.

    Luke 10:7
    And in the same house remain,
    eating and drinking such things as they give:
    for the labourer is worthy of his hire.

    What I want to offer here first is some of the references discussing this clear simple fact that the Paul's epistles, written c.60 AD, were written long enough after the Gospel of Luke that his Gospel was already circulating as scripture. Thus falsifying all theories of the Gospels as having been written in the 60s, 70s and 80s.

    Note that in the thread above, James Snapp objected to the simple and clear understanding of the Timothy verse, which would deep-six even more his theories of the Mark ending, yet did not offer his alternative.

    Note that Paul uses Lukes Gospel, since Luke was largely connected with Paul, rather than Matthew's:

    Matthew 10:10
    Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats,
    neither shoes, nor yet staves:
    for the workman is worthy of his meat.


    ===============

    And note that late dating will add other confusions, such as a quick pro forma rejection of the very solid Theophilus proposal, that Luke was writing his Gospel to Theophilus when he was the high priest. (c. 41 AD).

    the Theophilus proposal
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/pure...7573729001186/

    Here I briefly discussed the connection:
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/purebible/permalink/677573729001186/?comment_id=678474585577767&offset=0&total_comment s=5&comment_tracking={%22tn%22%3A%22R0%22}

    Granted, more should be done on Theophilus, but on this thread I want to discuss some of the more traditional evidences for early dating, starting with the Timothy verse.

    ==================

    We may also add a general review of the NT dating issues, one thread touched on the eyewitnesses question:

    NEW TESTAMENT - EYEWITNESSES (Bauckham, Williams)
    The Elephant in the Living Room - late pseudo-evangelical NT dating
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/pure...6823735742853/

    Note how the supposed evangelicals will even support the ultra-support unbelieving idea of the Gospels being written in the 80s (a darling idea of the liberal Germans, since it makes the prophecy of the Lord Jesus about the Temple being written down AFTER the destruction.)

    ==================
    background on Paul's citing Luke as scripture

    ========================

    My discussions of this question go back to 2003 on Xtianity and 2005 on the Xtalk forum, with mostly liberal scholars and sketpics, which had a fairly comprehensive discussion:

    [Xianity] NT Scripture - 27 books, responding to a Christian
    https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...ns/topics/9990

    [XTalk] Dating of Mark
    https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...s/topics/19565

    There were about 40 posts involved, time permitting I will pull out the salient points made.

    [Messianic_Apologetic] Paul quotes Luke 10:7 as "the scripture saith"
    Steven Avery - Feb, 2005
    https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...ns/topics/9271

    ========================

    A Commentary, Critical, Experimental, and Practical, on the Old and New Testaments: Acts-Romans (1874)
    JFB
    https://books.google.com/books?id=FdBHAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA496

    The labourer is worthy of his reward - or "hire" (Luke 10:7; whereas Matthew 10:10 has "his meat," or 'food.' Paul, if, as seems natural, "the Scripture" apply to the second quotation as well as the first, hereby recognizes the gospel of Luke, his own helper (whence appears the undesigned appositeness of the quotation), as inspired "Scripture." That gospel was probably in circulation then eight or nine years.

    ========================

    The textual "scholar" Samuel Davidson (1806-1898) acknowledged the connection:

    An Introduction to the New Testament: The Acts of the apostles to the Second epistle to the Thessalonians (1894)
    https://books.google.com/books?id=z-4UAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA61

    So he came to the reverse bogus conclusion that Timothy must have been written in the 2nd century!

    ========================

    The "proverbial" idea was, somewhat surprisingly, given by Calvin and Gill, without much comment. This fails because Paul specifically says "the scripture saith" .. (and we have a direct link and hit, and there is no such proverb known.)

    So we have a rare case where Benjamin Warfield is more sensible with scripture than those gentlemen:

    Earliest Titles of the New Testament Books (1885)
    Benjamin Warfield
    https://books.google.com/books?id=b8waAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA549

    ...The simple fact is, however, that the Apostle cites two passages as Scripture, and one of them is found in Deuteronomy and the other in Luke. Had the second one been found in the Old Testament instead of the New, the proverb theory would never have been dreamed of; it is the child of preconception.

    ========================

    For those who like to see something also defended by the modern scholars, we have a neat summary here by:

    L. Timothy Swinson of Tennessee Temple University:
    http://www.tntemple.edu/dr-timothy-swinson

    What Is Scripture?: Paul's Use of Graphe in the Letters to Timothy (2014)
    L Timothy Swinson
    https://books.google.com/books?id=b84SBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA93
    p. 93-101
    (then comes google blanks, then Wenham footnote on p. 107)

    Including many references to other scholars who support the Luke scripture connection. In fact, the discussion is one of the themes of Swinson's book! With references throughout.

    Here is the publisher summary:

    "Analysis of the literary scheme of the letters to Timothy suggests that graphe, as it is employed in each letter, may legitimately be understood to include some of the apostolic writings that now appear in the New Testament. In affirming the Pauline authorship of the Pastoral Epistles, Swinson argues that a form of the Gospel of Luke stands as the source of the second referent of graphe in 1 Tim 5:18 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] . Second, Swinson contends that pasa graphe in 2 Tim 3:16 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] includes the apostolic writings extant in Paul’s day, specifically Luke’s Gospel and some of Paul’s own writings. These parallel lines of analysis demonstrate that Paul ascribes to his own writings and to those of his coworkers an authoritative standing equal to that of the sacred writings (ta hiera grammata) found in the Old Testament. While many questions surrounding biblical authority and the biblical canon remain, Paul’s use of graphe in 1 and 2 Timothy nevertheless advances a high view of both Old Testament and New Testament Scripture."

    New Book on “Scripture” in the PE - R
    Bryant J. Williams III (wrote the forward)
    http://www.pastoralepistles.com/2014...ure-in-the-pe/

    This is all new to me, just learned of the Swinson book today, and we see that scholarship is catching up to scripture sense, in this one spot!

    Over the last couple of years, I had noticed some blogs and articles and references that were solid on this (still looking for the best) however, I did not expect anything so comprehensive with an academy modern scholarship referencing approach.

    As with the Theophilus proposal, you often end up with solid corroborative additional elements. Ones that you might not catch in the quick read and mild study. (That is one reason I set up a thread like this one, and bookmark it, so we have a place to place such notes!.)

    ===========================

    Maybe the Swinson book (which may be a fine purchase in Kindle or handcopy, not expensive) can help James review his hand-wave dismissal .

    Steven Avery
    New Testament Gospels dating 40-45 AD.
    (Eyewitnesses should == early NT dating)

    This came up in an interesting thread, where Richard Bauckham makes his own position exceedingly difficult.

    New Testament Scholarship Worldwide - 2016-04
    Bart Ehrman Debates Richard Bauckham About the Gospels
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/151949818157846/permalink/1161736490512502/
    New Testament Gospels dating 40-45 AD.
    (Eyewitnesses should == early NT dating)

    This came up in an interesting thread, where Richard Bauckham makes his own position exceedingly difficult.

    New Testament Scholarship Worldwide - 2016-04
    Bart Ehrman Debates Richard Bauckham About the Gospels
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/1519...1736490512502/
    Here is a blog or two that really has some good Theophilus material, including in the comments.

    Who is Luke's Theophilus - June 13, 2010 -6 comments
    https://smoodock45.wordpress.com/2010/06/13/who-is-luke’s-theophilus/

    Who is Luke's Theophilus - March 22, 2011 - 57 comments

    Richard Anderson is on the second comments, four posts, I was surprised by his "most excellent" answer, in that it did not include the Maimonides reference.

    Lots of urls in there.

    This does go with the dating issues such as here:

    NEW TESTAMENT - EYEWITNESSES (Bauckham, Williams)
    The Elephant in the Living Room - late pseudo-evangelical NT dating
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/pure...6823735742853/

    Expansion on PureBibleForum is the plan.

    Theophilus the high priest
    http://www.purebibleforum.com/forumd...he-high-priest

    ===========

    The Theophilus the high priest understanding is quite a radical transformation. It basically trhows out a ton of modern junque. ")

    ===========

    Steven
    Steven Avery
    All related:

    Prologue and the eyewitnesses

    Theophilus the high priest (Luke may be Acts 6 priest!)

    superb historicity accuracy of Luke.

    internal referencing (e.g. Paul refers to Luke as scripture)

    early dating of the Gospels - c. 40-50 AD

    A foundation of NT accuracy and perfection.

    =================

    Here I mention a bit about the historicity topic and pulled out an interesting quote where a somewhat liberal writer acknowledges that the Prologue (which is even a bit nuanced in the English of our pure AV) supports Luke's early connection with Jesus and/or the people close to the Lord.

    BCHF
    Luke's date for the crucifixion
    Lukes superb historicity and the Prologue eyewitnesses
    http://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=85890#p85890

    =================

    Need: a modest paper that integrates these topics. With the Theophilus proposal moving along, becoming wildly accepted in evangelical circles, we are in a good time. Btw, a little horn-tootin, I found and researched and wrote about the Hase-Michaelis history awhile back.

    ==================

    Steven

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •