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Thread: CARM WIP Hofstetter Paraclete

  1. Default CARM WIP Hofstetter Paraclete

    2-20-2019
    https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/th...99#post5834899
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Hofstetter;n5834899
    Because like most words in the GNT, it has a pedigree and usage in broader Greek literature, where it refers to persons. The standard Latin translation is advocatus, defense lawyer or other type of legal assistant or or even a general intermediary.
    2-21-19
    https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/th...96#post5835796
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Hofstetter;n5835796
    And of course, part of the meaning is that the paraclete is a person:... (1 John 2:1).
    At any rate, biblical authors chose their vocabulary because it carried a particular meaning suitable to their context. One of the problems with people who study only NT Greek is that they tend to treat it as an isolated artifact, when actually it was simply the ordinary living speech of the time. So contrary to your misguided opinion, a sense of what the word means in the broader corpus is essential.
    2-21-19
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Hofstetter;n5835119
    Nobody uses the term that way. Nobody in in ancient times thought of a παράκλητος /advocatus as anything other than a person.
    https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/th...19#post5835119

    2-21-19
    https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/th...37#post5836537
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Hofstetter;n5836537
    These are pragmatic specialized usages derived well after the time of the NT, and have no bearing on how the NT authors used the term (which fits perfectly with the generalized usage at the time). And it's clearly not your area of expertise, or you would have realized why this does not support your contentions.
    2-21-19
    https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/th...25#post5836525

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Hofstetter;n5836525
    Well, you read the NT from a hyper-theological perspective into which you have to fit all the data, including using false analogies and comparisons. In this case, you might want to start with thinking about what really makes a παράκλητος a παράκλητος, and why the term is used exclusively of people throughout Greek literature.
    2-21-19
    https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/theology/general-christian-topics/biblical-languages/5835408-fallacious-trinitarian-argument-concerning-holy-spirit?p=5835796#post5835796

    2-21-19
    https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/th...19#post5835119
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Hofstetter;n5835119
    Nobody uses the term that way. Nobody in in ancient times thought of a παράκλητος /advocatus as anything other than a person.
    =================
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Hofstetter;n5835021
    Notice how you use a definition that no lexicon provides "that which advocates." It's not "that which..." It's "he who..."
    As usual, when challenged on your minimal Greek knowledge, you distract with theology.
    Mark 9:20 gender leakage
    2-21-19
    https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/th...96#post5835796

    =================

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Avery;n5840188
    This has become an interesting study to see if either Jameson or Barry Hofstetter can acknowledge that they erred.
    Remember, the studies began with their insistence that a paraclete must be a "person".
    ||
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Hofstetter;n5840252
    That is not what I claimed, nor, I believe, Jason. Care to try again?
    =====================

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Hofstetter;n5840250
    . You also rewrite my claim about παράκλητος into a nice little straw-man. Not surprised.


  2. Default

    https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/th...a-person/page4

    New Testament Text and Language: A Sheffield Reader
    edited by Stanley E. Porter, Craig A. Evans
    Kenneth Grayston
    The Meaning of Paraklētos - p. 207-221
    https://books.google.ca/books?id=E6XnCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA213

    Philo was prepared to transfer this language of the royal household to human relations with God. For example, penitent Jews have three paraklētoi when they plead for reconciliation with the Father: God’s own clemency and kindness, the holiness of the founders of the race, and the reformation at work in the penitents (Rewards and Punishments 166-67). Again, commenting on Lev. 6.2-7, he explains that a deliberate offender may confess, make restitution, pay a fine and thus propitiate (hilaskesthai) the injured party. Then he goes to the temple to ask for remission of his sins ‘taking with him as his irreproachable paraklētos the soul-felt conviction which has saved him from a fatal disaster’ (Special Laws 1.237). Finally, in Moses 2.134, he says that when the high priest pleads his cause, that sins may be remembered no more and good gifts be showered in rich abundance, he wears the sacred vesture which symbolizes the world. ‘For he who has been consecrated to the Father of the world must need have the Father’s son (i.e. the world) as his paraklētos.’ This is good Jewish doctrine: when men ask God for forgiveness and benefits, they rely for support on God’s nature and their own repentance.

    These passages from six works exhaust the references from Philo. Not one of them deals with legal proceedings: literally or metaphorically they are set in royal palaces, administrative buildings and sacred temples, but not in legal court-rooms. The business of a paraklētos is to give advice or to make a great person favourable to a suppliant. This ‘propitiation’ may be effected by the standing and the intercessions of the paraklētos; or the great person himself may become the suppliant’s paraklētos, or the repentance of a guilty suppliant may dispense with the need of a separate paraklētos. The word means something like supporter, sponsor, patron.

  3. Default the Barry Hofstetter claim - A paraclete must be a person, "the term is used exclusively of people throughout Greek literatu

    the Barry Hofstetter claim - A paraclete must be a person, "the term is used exclusively of people throughout Greek literature"

    the Barry Hofstetter claim - a paraclete must be a person, "the term is used exclusively of people throughout Greek literature"

    Does Barry Hofstetter even remember what he wrote?
    Here are examples of his claim:

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Hofstetter;n5835119
    Nobody in in ancient times thought of a παράκλητος /advocatus as anything other than a person.
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Hofstetter;n5836525
    what really makes a παράκλητος a παράκλητος, and why the term is used exclusively of people throughout Greek literature.
    Now that Philo, the paper from Kenneth Grayston and many references have shown Barry Hofstetter to be simply wrong, watch the new broken field running.

    =================

    Emphasis added
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Avery;n5840188
    This has become an interesting study to see if either Jameson or Barry Hofstetter can acknowledge that they erred.
    Remember, the studies began with their insistence that a paraclete must be a "person".
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Hofstetter;n5840252
    That is not what I claimed, nor, I believe, ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Hofstetter;n5840250
    You also rewrite my claim about παράκλητος into a nice little straw-man. Not surprised.
    So, Barry, since you cannot acknowledge your error, please tell us your new claim.

    Do you need the references again from the Kenneth Grayston paper and other sources?

  4. Default

    Originally posted by Barry Hofstetter View Post
    This has what to do with the biblical languages?
    https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/th...50#post5840250



    https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/th...33#post5840333

    Barry, you made the absurd claims that a paraclete must be a person. Not only was it a lexical fallacy, your historical claim of usage was totally
    false. Oops.

    Now you are upset that the illogic of your claim has been shown.

    ==============

    Then, with error begets error, you started to emphasize the uselessness of your word "person:" claiming that every frothing devil is a "person."

    Again, you got upset when your words were shown to be nonsense. e.g. You will not say that Mary Magdalene was possessed by seven persons, or that you see the seven Spirits of God as the seven Persons of God. There is ZERO consistency from you.

    ==============

    What you are unable to do, is simply to accept the corrections.

    If your positions are untrustworthy on simple logic, and you are not speaking accurately and truthfully, then what use is your Greek background?
    (Rhetorical question, quite obviously.)

    ==============

    One major problem you have is that you wildly and blindly take positions solely based on your doctrinal presuppositions.

    You are most welcome to believe that God exists eternally in three co-equal, coeternal, consubstantial Persons. Many folks believe that as an interpretation of the New Testament writings. However, you should not fabricate totally foolish arguments for that purpose. (Like your paraclete must be a person argument.)

    And when the foolish arguments are torn to shreds, by proper scholarship references, and logic and common sense, you would do well to say ... "oops, my error, thanks!"

    ==============

    Steven

  5. Default some of the handwaves

    metaphor

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Hofstetter;n5836537
    These are pragmatic specialized usages derived well after the time of the NT, and have no bearing on how the NT authors used the term (which fits perfectly with the generalized usage at the time).
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Hofstetter;n5842874
    Now, regardless of the the precise referent of υἱῷ in this context, it's quite clear that Philo is using the idea of a paraclete from it's usual personal meaning. This kind of pragmatic extension is common in literature (the usual designation is "metaphor"). This does not invalidate or change the usual usage of the term, but the metaphor itself is not possible without the that standard usage
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Hofstetter;n5842895
    ... remember that the Spirit is viewed from multiple perspectives in the Scriptures, and one of them is as the power of God or the means/agent by which God's power and grace is communicated, which makes the language of "filling" perfectly appropriate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Hofstetter;n5838330
    Do demons (not devils) talk, do they interact with their environment, do they control their subjects, and so forth? If these don't describe persons, what does?

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