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Thread: Bill Mounce - “In Greek, pronouns follow natural gender..."

  1. Default Bill Mounce - “In Greek, pronouns follow natural gender..."

    CARM opening post mirrored here for permanence.
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    CARM - Biblical Languages
    Bill Mounce - “In Greek, pronouns follow natural gender..." (and points back to earlier thread)
    https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/th...natural-gender

    Pure BIble Forum
    Bill Mounce - “In Greek, pronouns follow natural gender..."
    http://www.purebibleforum.com/showthread.php?1006-Bill-Mounce-%E2%80%9CIn-Greek-pronouns-follow-natural-gender-quot
    Discussion starts here:
    https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/th...58#post5782058

    Emphasis added:

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Avery;n5782058
    Bill Mounce in his flash-cards

    "In Greek, pronouns follow natural gender but nouns for the most part do not.”

    https://quizlet.com/120578393/greek-grammar-mounce-flash-cards/

    This sounds like a rationale for shifting a pronoun for which the referent is pneuma to masculine. Since Mounce is saying you should search for a natural gender (e.g. in writing Greek.). Clearly, the Greek New Testament has no such shift, as has been discussed on this board.
    Outside the occasinoal constructio ad sensum involving e.g. a girl, or a group of men, what would be the normative usage of this Mounce Rule? Are you supposed to search for the natural gender of a hurricane? a raccoon? Your thoughts? Appreciated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Hofstetter;n5783653
    So, while Mounce may indeed have a theological or apologetical motivation for his emphasis, he also has a real linguistic basis for his assertions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Avery;n5784169
    Do you agree with this statement?
    Do pronouns in Greek follow natural gender?
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Hofstetter;n5784196
    Sometimes. Sometimes they follow grammatical gender. Plenty of examples of both.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Avery;n5784206
    Which is more frequent?
    Mounce is stating the above as the grammatical norm.
    Do you agree?
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Hofstetter;n5784826
    I don't know, never having done or seen a statistical analysis, and I don't really care. It's a non-controversial issue, and only matters to people who think it somehow helps them out theologically.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Avery;n5784933
    This is the good old Hofstetter shuffle dance. So would you teach this in your classes?
    Is there any other Greek grammarian who gives this teaching? At any time, in any book?
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Hofstetter;n5785086
    I don't know and I don't care.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Avery;n5786513
    The incorrect statement of Mounce is not a "theological issue" per se, it is simply an errant claim.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Avery;n5787344
    If the Mounce statement were true, then the Greek pronouns for which the referent is an inanimate object (chair, car, sandwich) would always be neuter, the natural gender. Even if the object itself were masculine or feminine grammatical gender.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Avery;n5787519
    Here he is actually defining natural gender.

    Basics of Biblical Greek Grammar (2009)
    By William D. Mounce
    https://books.google.com/books?id=AjORURze1xwC&pg=PT54

    .6 Natural gender means lhat a word lakes on the gender of the object it represents. We refer to a rock as an “it” because we do not regard the rock as male or female. But we refer to a man as “he” and a woman as “she.” In Greek, pronouns follow natural gender but nouns for the most part do not. ... .
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Hofstetter;n5788025
    I never said anything about statistics ...
    Clearly Barry did reference doing a "statistical analysis".
    Is this necessary for determining whether the Bill Mounce quote is accurate?

    "In Greek, pronouns follow natural gender but nouns for the most part do not.

    Do Greek pronouns follow natural gender.
    Are Greek pronouns neuter for chairs, cars, and sandwiches?

  2. Default

    One of the notes sent to the Biblical Training. Bill Mounce.

    hi, greetings... I sent a message to the Bill Mounce page, not sure if he saw it.. In the 2009 Basics of Biblical Greek Grammar, he defines "Natural Gender" on p. 54 § 5.6 he writes:

    6 Natural gender means that a word takes on the gender of the object it represents. We refer to a rock as an “it” because we do not regard the rock as male or female. But we refer to a man as “he” and a woman as “she.” In Greek, pronouns follow natural gender but nouns for the most part do not...

    My concern is: "pronouns follow natural gender..." This seems very questionable. As a major example, inanimate masculine and feminine nouns that are neuter in terms of biological gender (e.g. the feminine house οἰκίᾳ), consistently take pronouns that match their grammatical gender, not their natural gender. Shouldn't this statement be corrected? It is also on flash cards (quizlets). Thanks!

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